ground signals

[Simon]

Morning all,

I'm sure someone used to make ground disc signals, but can't for the life of me remember who, does anyone know? Failing that I'll make some but can't think of an easy way to make a circular disc.

Thanks

Simon

[Gralyn]

Any plastic lid or bottle top with a diameter between 16 and 25 mm should do. Just cut off the top with a razor saw and you have your disc.[/b]

[Keith S]

Roundhouse makes a couple of types of signals, at least one is a disc type, but I don't know if it's what you're thinking of. It's like a red disc with holes in it on top of a ground-based lever.

Sorry, we don't use these kinds of signals in North America so I'm not sure if I'm talking about the right thing.

Anyway check out Roundhouse's online shop. They make some signals.

[andymctractor]

You could convert small foreign coins by filing the visible surface flat.
I say foreign coins as 'breaking up a UK coin' could be an offence contrary to Section 10 of The Coinage Act 1971 though I don't believe this legislation was enacted to frustrate railway modellers.

[andymctractor]

[quote="Keith S:105532"]I don't know if it's what you're thinking of. It's like a red disc with holes in it on top of a ground-based lever./quote]

Take a look at this for some info on ground signals
http://www.signalbox.org/signals/semaphore4.htm

I think in North America you sometimes use an attachment to the turnout that indicates which way the turnout is set.

Hope this helps.

[Big Jim]

I say foreign coins as 'breaking up a UK coin' could be an offence contrary to Section 10 of The Coinage Act 1971 though I don't believe this legislation was enacted to frustrate railway modellers

Slightly O/T but possibly of interest.
Many years ago I borrowed a book on miniature steam engines from the local library. One of the designs was for a tiny little oscillator that used a pre decimal penny as the base plate. There was an additional page slipped into the book that said the publishers had been contacted by HM treasury and been informed that this was illegal and any one wanting to build the engine should use a blank plate instead.

[IrishPeter]

Ground signals evolved from point indicators.  Most old installations, say pre-1900 will tend to have indicators worked off the tail road of the points showing which road the points are set for, rather than independently controlled ground discs.  In latter times, they were often converted to independently worked ground signals.

Douglas, IMR, had the typical Dutton or MacKenzie and Holland type which was a lamp attached to the back of a disc.  The whole contraption turned on a vertical shaft so that in the 'on' position you got a red disc (day) with a red light (night) as the indication.  When off it was turned sideways, and I think the Douglas examples showed a green light by night.  Other varieties included miniature low level semaphores, etc., or had some sort of flap arrangement to show clear.

The picture is further complicated by the fact that late 19th century installations made use of subsidiary and shunt signals less sharply differentiated from home signals than was later the case.  These were usually full size or three-quarter size semaphores arms.  IMR subs were marked with a dot, rather than a stripe and indicated movements such as 'Peel Line to Goods Yard' at Douglas.  Those that signalled running movements, such as Peel Line to Platform 5 were given a full size arm, whilst a smaller arm was assigned to the signal governing the move into the Yard.   An 'S' was used to mark a shunt arm.  These only authorized a train to move within the area under the protection of the home signals.  

<tangent>
Douglas Signal Box was a bit peculiar there as the inner and outer homes were on the same lever (O'Donnell, Dutton & Co's number 2, saving levers!)  and like a lot of 1890s layouts it did not encourage the use of a platform for both arrival and departure.  Also, they were still 'stacking' signals at the time, so the old bracket on the side of the water tank at Douglas needed some working out if you were not familiar with it.  It had two dolls (posts.)  The left one applied to the Peel line and read as from left to right as you went down the post.  The top arm signalled an arriving train to the Peel Arrival Platform 3/4; the middle arm - a full size subsidiary arm - signalled a train from the Peel line to the Castletown arrival platform 5; whilst the lowest arm - a three-quarter side subsidiary arm signalled from the Peel line to the Goods Yard.  The right doll for the Port Erin line had two arms - the upper a home arm signalling to platform 5, and a 3/4 size subsidiary to the goods yard.  

Also, any unusual moves, like Peel line to Platform 1 would have to be flagged.  Another oddity was that although Peel arrivals could use both arrival roads, and Peel departures both departure roads; the Port Erin line trains could only use the ones on their side of the station.  This reflected the traffic levels of c.1890 when the Port Erin line lagged behind the Peel line in ridership.  In later years, when trains did depart from the arrival roads, the shunts would be used as starting signals, and then the advance starters pulled off to allow the trains to proceed out of the station.  Apparently, the shunt signals were not locked by the advance starters, or else some very swift work was done in the Box - pull off shunt, drop it back on and pull of advanced starter (normal term not IMR term) without checking the departing train!

</tangent>
Most of the Isle of Man system was signalled in a much more primitive manner using semaphore home signals, and independently worked points.  Starters and distants were rare.  The homes were later interlocked with the points using slot detectors, which also pop up on the Southwold and some other lines that had to get themselves right with the "Lock, Block, and Brake Act" in a hurry.  The basic idea was that unless the points were right, the home could not be pulled off.  The draw back there was that if one forgot to put say the Down home signal back to 'on' again, a departing 'up' train would break the blasted slot detector.  Usually shunting moves were signalled in the most primitive manner - point indicators and hand signals.  IMR point levers were painted to show either 'white for right' and 'red for wrong' to facing traffic, or else lay for the direction for which the points were set. If points were regularly trailed the 'underside' of the spinning top type of lever was often 'green for caution' - the IMR sticking to the pre-1884 convention of red for danger; green for caution; white for clear except at Douglas and St John's.

Generally speaking the closer your railway was constructed to WW1 the more likely it was to have ground signals.  That said, they were not that common on NG railways, but then, neither was full mainline standard signalling.  Modern semaphore signalling only really dates from the 1920s when the BOT/RCH finally adopted yellow for Distant arms, and started enforcing smaller arms and distinctive markings for subsidiary signals, and the use of ground discs.

When all is said and done - your railway and your rules applies as ever.

Have fun!

Cheers,
Peter in AZ

[Keith S]

I don't know if it's what you're thinking of. It's like a red disc with holes in it on top of a ground-based lever./quote]

Take a look at this for some info on ground signals
http://www.signalbox.org/signals/semaphore4.htm

I think in North America you sometimes use an attachment to the turnout that indicates which way the turnout is set.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Andy. There is an attachment, a red and green or yellow metal shape with the red set at 90 degrees to the other one, when the points are set it rotates to show either red or green.

I was a railwayman for a short time after college, and they gave us a deck of cards with signals on the front and the meanings on the back. We were encouraged to shuffle the cards and practice recognizing the signals. There were a lot of them.

Of course, we used coloured lights for the most part; semaphore signals were phased out I think in the '70s. I remember seeing the odd one on the roof of a station when I was a lad.

[ge_rik]

Of course, we used coloured lights for the most part; semaphore signals were phased out I think in the '70s. I remember seeing the odd one on the roof of a station when I was a lad.

We've still got plenty in use on mainlines over here if you want a few

Rik

[IrishPeter]

Around here - Arizona - the older point indicators (switch stands) tend to have two metal shapes bolted to the upright, and are unilluminated. One is circular; the other an arrow pointing the direction of the diverging sidings. This has the merit of being relatively easy to understand. You could write a book, and in all probability someone already has, about the varieties of US/Canadian point indicators. There are considerably more than Heinz has sauces. The Colorado NG lines seemed to use 'harp stands' quite a bit due to the fact stub points hung around there for years. There the lie of the lever told you which way you were going!

Peter in AZ