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What is it? An F&B 0-4-2 - FINISHED
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 7:32 am
by philipy
...or more accurately, What will it be when it is finished? Answers on a postcard...
The lads in the E & D Erecting Shop have been a real pain recently. Following their success with the Quarry Hunslet they've been moaning about having nothing to do and, as a result generally creating havoc around the line.
The E & D Chief Draughtsman recently acquired a new book and in it found some drawings and photo's which inspired him, so he had a word with Chief Operating Officer, who took a quick shufti at the Chief Financial Officer's books and decided that, with the number of bits already in stock, it was a viable proposition. Plus, constructing this loco would kill several birds with one stone. So, the drawing commenced and this where we are at atm. Still a lot to do, obviously:
- Screenshot 2024-10-16 06.45.59.png (138.51 KiB) Viewed 75974 times
Re: What is it?
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 8:03 am
by ge_rik
A very early England loco?
Rik
Re: What is it?
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 8:50 am
by philipy
Nope...next....
( but you are right about it being early )
Re: What is it?
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:04 am
by StuartJ
Festiniog & Blaenau Manning Wardle?
Re: What is it?
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:12 am
by GTB
The driving wheels are a giveaway........
Built by the third builder in Jack Lane, for the other Festiniog.
Graeme
ps. Forgot to ask. Which book sparked off this build?
Re: What is it?
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:24 am
by philipy
Both Stuart and Graeme are spot on! ( I almost left the wheels off because I thought that might be too much of a clue - I obviously should have done!)
I haven't yet decided whether it will be No.1 or No.2 but not a lot of difference between them apart from the sandboxes.
Graeme, the book is " Tren Bach Y LLan, The Little Train to Llan Ffestiniog" by Chris Jones. It is a superb book, full of mind bendingly tedious but fascinating detail!
Including a print of the MW GA loco drawing plus a 2021 redraw and some lovely old photos. Also includes some beautiful watercolours of the area before quarrying really started.
Re: What is it?
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:39 pm
by LNR
Funny, I have also considered that loco for a build and collected quite a few pics.
Grant.
Re: What is it?
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:49 pm
by ge_rik
It looks like the trailing wheels are fixed rigidly rather than swivelling. If so, I wonder how it will cope with tight curves and pointwork.
Are you going to cheat or have them fixed to the chassis?
Rik
Re: What is it?
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 1:05 pm
by ge_rik
ge_rik wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:49 pm
It looks like the trailing wheels are fixed rigidly rather than swivelling. If so, I wonder how it will cope with tight curves and pointwork.
Are you going to cheat or have them fixed to the chassis?
Rik
Just realised that I have that book and now see that the author speculates that on the odd occasion when the loco ran on FR metals, they would probably have had to remove the trailing wheels.
Rik
Re: What is it?
Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 2:01 pm
by philipy
ge_rik wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 1:05 pm
ge_rik wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:49 pm
It looks like the trailing wheels are fixed rigidly rather than swivelling. If so, I wonder how it will cope with tight curves and pointwork.
Are you going to cheat or have them fixed to the chassis?
Rik
Just realised that I have that book and now see that the author speculates that on the odd occasion when the loco ran on FR metals, they would probably have had to remove the trailing wheels.
Rik
Not decided yet. I've printed a simple chassis, put wheels in and pushed it round my tightest curve and I think it just makes it, but I need to do it a bit more scientifically under its own power. I think that unless the trailing axle is load bearing balance would be an issue, so a simple pony truck wouldn't achieve anything. The rear driving axle is only a couple of mm behind the centre of the loco.
I've been wondering about a sliding double axle to give a bit of sideplay. I can get about 49mm between frames and allowing 40mm between wheel faces should give me +/- 4mm play which should help considerably if needed, as long as I can get a smooth enough slide. I've got some 3mm bore oilite bushes and I'm hoping they might work in this situation.
Re: What is it?
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2024 1:09 am
by GTB
philipy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:24 am
It is a superb book, full of mind bendingly tedious but fascinating detail!
I got my copy of a newly published book on the Tullah Tramway in Tassie just yesterday. Same sort of thing, it will take a while to read and digest, but worth it just for the photos. There are photos of rail ambulances in the book that would have been useful when I was building my model.......
I went through the same issues with an 0-4-2T wheelbase when building my KS Skylark that you'll have with this little MW.
When Nipper and Scorcher were built the Bissell truck was a newfangled yankee invention and radial axles were also new. MW were a conservative old fashioned company and appear to have used a rigid wheelbase, effectively a long wheelbase 0-6-0T. With that long a wheelbase a model will likely need vertical flexibility, as well as sideplay, on the trailing axle.
My solution to all this was to fit a spring loaded Bissell truck (pony truck) and fit the batteries as far forward as they'll go, right up against the smokebox door if possible. The spring plunger rubbing against the underside of the cab floor also tends to damp out any side to side movement and stops the back end of the loco slopping around when running cab first.
Have fun........
Graeme
Re: What is it?
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2024 7:29 pm
by tommygander1941
GTB wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 1:09 am
philipy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:24 am
It is a superb book, full of mind bendingly tedious but fascinating detail!
I got my copy of a newly published book on the Tullah Tramway in Tassie just yesterday. Same sort of thing, it will take a while to read and digest, but worth it just for the photos. There are photos of rail ambulances in the book that would have been useful when I was building my model.......
I went through the same issues with an 0-4-2T wheelbase when building my KS Skylark that you'll have with this little MW.
When Nipper and Scorcher were built the Bissell truck was a newfangled yankee invention and radial axles were also new. MW were a conservative old fashioned company and appear to have used a rigid wheelbase, effectively a long wheelbase 0-6-0T. With that long a wheelbase a model will likely need vertical flexibility, as well as sideplay, on the trailing axle.
My solution to all this was to fit a spring loaded Bissell truck (pony truck) and fit the batteries as far forward as they'll go, right up against the smokebox door if possible. The spring plunger rubbing against the underside of the cab floor also tends to damp out any side to side movement and stops the back end of the loco slopping around when running cab first.
Have fun........
Graeme
Btw the locos were never called "Nipper" & "Scorcher", those were names suggested out of thin air by J. I. C. Boyd and somehow stuck. The large plates on the tanks were just the MW works plates
Re: What is it?
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2024 5:14 pm
by philipy
GTB wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 1:09 am
My solution to all this was to fit a spring loaded Bissell truck (pony truck) and fit the batteries as far forward as they'll go, right up against the smokebox door if possible. The spring plunger rubbing against the underside of the cab floor also tends to damp out any side to side movement and stops the back end of the loco slopping around when running cab first.
Graeme, where did you position your spring - directly above the axle, or bearing on the linkage between the axle and pony truck pivot?
I'm thinking that this might be the better way to go
Re: What is it?
Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2024 3:38 am
by GTB
philipy wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 5:14 pm
Graeme, where did you position your spring - directly above the axle, or bearing on the linkage between the axle and pony truck pivot?
I'm thinking that this might be the better way to go
A picture is worth a thousand words they say.........
- Skylark-2w truck.jpg (66.7 KiB) Viewed 75333 times
The pic is from the Skylark and is my usual arrangement, although a couple have a simple T-shaped frame. If I'd thought more about it at the time, I'd have put the spring behind the axle on the Skylark, so there was space (just) to have the motor under the cab floor, instead of sticking up through it.
https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?t=13529
The pivot is located by Baldry's Rule, which along with the spring seems to give stable, derailment free running in both directions. I've got nine of this type running in various locos in the collection, as leading trucks, trailing trucks, or both.
Graeme
Re: What is it? An F&B 0-4-2
Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:37 am
by philipy
Thanks Graeme, that is all extremely helpful.
I did vaguely know of Mr Baldry's Rule, but have never had need to use it before. However applying it to this loco gave me a problem, in that the pivot point came out bang slap in the centre of the N20 gearmotor.
Your comment about possibly not putting your motor up into the cab then made me think. I can't do that here because the driving axles are under the boiler rather than the firebox, buuuuuttttt, I suddenly realised that there is sufficient depth in the frames to hide the motor horizontally between the drivers, under the boiler, and it won't be seen because there is an upward bulge in the top of the frames with the boiler sitting down between them.
Coming back to the pony truck, I think this just allows the pivot point to be in the correct position. In fact it is 'inside' the front wall of the firebox and I may have to fudge things slightly in that area, but the motor was going to go there anyway under my original scheme so it will be less obvious than that.
Thanks again.
Re: What is it? An F&B 0-4-2
Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2024 2:55 pm
by GTB
philipy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:37 am
I did vaguely know of Mr Baldry's Rule, but have never had need to use it before. However applying it to this loco gave me a problem, in that the pivot point came out bang slap in the centre of the N20 gearmotor.
Yes, the Skylark motor mount also has to carry the rear truck pivot, as Baldry's Rule located the pivot under the motor gearbox......
Putting the motor between the drivers sounds like a reasonable solution.
Have fun,
Graeme
Re: What is it? An F&B 0-4-2
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2024 2:14 pm
by Old Man Aaron
I'd have just trialled-and-errored (mostly the latter) without such helpful things as the forum.
Don't see a lot of modelling that really early narrow gauge out there, so this is a treat.
Re: What is it? An F&B 0-4-2
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2024 4:39 pm
by philipy
Old Man Aaron wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 2:14 pm
I'd have just trialled-and-errored (mostly the latter) without such helpful things as the forum.
This is a link to a very simple and easily understood explanation.
https://www.scalefour.org/resources/baldry.html
Its probably a lot more essential to P4 modellers than to our rather steamroller wheels!
Re: What is it? An F&B 0-4-2
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2024 6:53 pm
by -steves-
philipy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 7:32 am
...or more accurately, What will it be when it is finished? Answers on a postcard...
I would have guessed a Manning Wardle from the wheels too as they are exactly the same as I did on the ones for mine that I did a couple of years ago, lol.
Re: What is it? An F&B 0-4-2
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2024 10:22 am
by -steves-
Goodness, I actually posted it up with the wrong wheels, these were my wheels.