Modelling 3' Gauge

[HereticUK]

Continuing my slow descent into madness whilst trying to decide what I would actually like to do with a garden railway, I have been watching a lot of videos from the Ivo Peters collection and have taken an interest in the quite large number of 3' gauge lines that used to exist in Britain. I found the thought of modelling a joint passenger/mineral line intriguing and I was wondering has attempted this and if there are any tips or things I should know about modelling this particularly unusual concept. Would 16mm scale work for this?

[GTB]

Would 16mm scale work for this?

3' gauge in the garden scales is normally modelled using 15mm/ft scale on 45mm gauge track. This is used by Accucraft for their IOM models.

I use this scale for the TVT and the timber tram that connects with it. The Hunslet I built using a Roundhouse Bertie chassis is based on a 3' gauge prototype used on a civil engineering project in the UK.

http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/about6435.html

Something like a Roundhouse Bertie with a nominal scale of 16 mm/ft works out around the same size as a 3' gauge loco. in 15mm/ft scale.

Graeme

[HereticUK]

Wow, that is a lovely loco. That has definitely given me some things to think about.

[GTB]

That has definitely given me some things to think about.

Indeed.

'Industrial Narrow Gauge Album' by Andrew Neale, published by his own Plateway Press, is still in print and has a good wide ranging collection of photos. of UK industrial railways. It doesn't concentrate on just front 3/4 shots of steam locos., but also shows petrol/diesel locos. and industrial rolling stock in context.

Another good source book for industrial railway infrastructure is 'Industrial Narrow Gauge Rolling Stock and Trackwork' by Sydney Leleux, also from Plateway Press. Out if print I think, but can probably be found second hand.

Plateway Press has published a lot of books over the years that are fruitful hunting grounds for anyone interested in industrial narrow gauge. Most are out of print now, but with a bit of patience used copies can be found. Demand is strong, so they aren't always cheap.......

Graeme

[HereticUK]

I've found Andrew Neales's "Industrial Narrow Gauge Album" on Amazon and have ordered it, along with two of his other books detailing the back catalogue of Hunslet and Bagnall narrow gauge locomotives

[HereticUK]

What would the minimum radius be for a curve when modelling this? I was thinking 4' or maybe 5'...

[GTB]

What would the minimum radius be for a curve when modelling this? I was thinking 4' or maybe 5'...

My stock just sqeaks through a 4' radius reverse curve, as I use chopper couplings and they run out of sideplay at that point. They look better on larger radius though and if I build a track it will have #6 turnouts and 6' minimum curves on the mainline.

Depends on what you intend running. Small locos and short wagons will handle sharper curves than 4', especially if you use centre buffers and chain couplings.

Graeme

[HereticUK]

Well I want to be able to run a variety of rolling stock on the line, so I guess it will have to be at least 4'!

[IrishPeter]

It is customary to use 15mm:foot for 3' gauge as on "45mm" track that gives an almost precise conversion to 3' gauge in the chosen scale. 16mm will also work, but you have to remember that 45mm track is equal to about 2'9.75" in 16mm so you will be making compromises. Most trade support is for 15mm:ft rather than "SM45"

As you will have gathered, I have a strong preference for 3' gauge or thereabouts - Swedish 'trefoten' (891mm) and the predominately German 900mm gauges also count. The Isle of Man Railway is my favurite line and very well known to me and for that reason I choose NOT to model it! Even within the UK - which until 1922 included the whole of Ireland - and IOM there is a huge range of prototypes to choose from. Northamptonshire had some fascinating iron ore tramways which operated standard industrial locos with long rakes of tipplers, and were very busy. The other end of the market are the intensively worked and passenger orientated Cork, Blackrock and Passage Railway, and the Isle of Man Railway. At its height, the Isle of Man Railway operated 87 passenger vehicles and carried well over 1,000,000 passengers a year, and was very much a mainline operation. However, the IMR is very distictive and has a high level of individuality.

British three-foot lines were predominately industrial but the two common carriers - t'Owd Ratty and the Southwold - were very different characters. T'Owd Ratty was mainly an iron ore hauler with some passenger traffic, whilst the Southwold was the classic rural branch - albeit an eccentric one!

Most of the Irish common carriers were classic rural branchlines, albeit it with significant stretches of roadside running in some cases. The exceptions were the Donegal and the Lough Swilly, which rather resembled the regional Metre gauge secondary systems of France, and the passenger orientated Cork, Blackrock, and Passage. The Ballymena and Larne had both a decent passenger service and heavy iron ore traffic from the Cushendall.

To get on to technical matters. IMHO, most Roundhouse and Accucraft generic locos look better on 45mm track than on 32mm, as are the size of small to small-medium size 3' gauge locomotives. If you intend using bogie vehicles in the 35-37 scale foot range then 4' minimum radius curves are a must with chopper couplers and adviseable with buffer and bogchain. Large overhangs can a problem with chopper couplers unless you are prepared to give them some extra sideplay. Four-wheelers are OK down to about 3' radius less if the wheelbases are very short. If you have a mad urge to build the NCC boat train rake which had some 50' vehicles in it, then you will probably be best off with 6' radius.

The usual size for a 3' gauge goods wagon is around 14' by 6'6" though you will get some as short as 9' (iron ore tipplers)and others up to 17'6" (some of the later Donegal and IMR stock). Four-wheel passenger vehicles were around 16' to 20' long, Cleminson six-wheelers usually ran from 30 to 36' and bogie passenger vehicles can run anywhere from 24' to 50' with most being between 30 and 38 feet. Early 3' gauge locomotives were generally four or six coupled with all the available permutations of leading and trailing wheels occuring somewhere or other! The biggest 3' gauge locos in the UK were the Lough Swilly's eight couple locomotives built for the Burtonport extension - two 4-8-0 tender locos and two 4-8-4Ts! The most numerous types were 0-4-0T, 0-6-0T and 2-4-0T.

Hope this all helps!

Peter in AZ

[HereticUK]

Wow! That is a lot of useful information there!! I have acquired a few books recently (and still more to come) and these have also been a great help. Many thanks guys!

[IrishPeter]

One thing I should perhaps point out about 3' gauge is that those lines that were railways tended to shift a lot faster than the usual NG 12-15 mph.  The average speeds on the three routes out of Douglas in the 1930s were

Douglas to Port Erin - 18.3 mph
Douglas to Peel - 19.7mph
Douglas to Ramsey - 18.3mph

The non-stop to Port Erin averaged 22.75mph, and the limited stop train to Ramsey 25 mph.  The latter needed some sustain 35 mph running Union Mills - St John's and Michael - Ramsey to make the schedule.  

Even today, with the IMR operating under something approximating to a UK Light Railway order, the average for Douglas to Port Erin is 15.5mph with up to 8 stops.  This requires some very smart station work.  Last Sudnay afternoon I was on the 15.50 Port Erin - Douglas which, with seven stops, including a very lengthy one at Castletown to pick up a large party of 6-11 y.o. children and their handlers.  Despite the long delay at Castletown we made it in 62 minutes gross - 57 minutes net - without exceeding the 25 mph speed limit.  That said, we came down Nunnery Bank pretty sharpish, and there was some pretty sharp station work at Ballasalla, Santon, and Port Soderick.

The CB&P was also a line noted for speed, with the a limited stop doing the 16 miles from Cosshaven to Albert Street in 42 minutes inclusive of street running in Monkstown, and three stops.  The four 2-4-2 Passage Tanks were specialized kit with 4'6" driving wheels, but I suspect that was as much a hindrence as a help on a residental service.  

On the other end of the spectrum were the roadside tramways where 12 mph was mandated by the BOT.  Non roadside sections on Irish Tramways and Light Railways were restricted to 25mph, whilst street running meant a restriction down to 6mph.  Large sections of the Lough Swilly, the Wee Donegal, and the Antrim lines were built as regular railways, and not under the 1883 Tramways Act so they operate under the usual railway rules.

Cheers,
Peter in AZ

[HereticUK]

Are there many companies that sell 15mm kits or models? Besides Accucraft American-outline models, of course. It seems to me that quite a lot of the models in this scale are scratch-built.

[GTB]

Are there many companies that sell 15mm kits or models? Besides Accucraft American-outline models, of course. It seems to me that quite a lot of the models in this scale are scratch-built.

In the UK there are a couple of Isle of Man wagon kits from IP Engineering and DJB Engineering have some IOM coach kits. Worsley Works have a few Irish models in etched brass, but they aren't complete kits. Atropos has some wooden Kits of Irish rolling stock, but they don't have a website.

If you are still thinking about industrial railways, then scale is less important and 16mm scale kits can be used, provided there is space for 45mm wheelsets.

Not much rtr, apart from the Accucraft UK range of IOM models.

Graeme

[IrishPeter]

The difference between 16mm (19.1) and 15mm (20.3) stock is small enough that generic goods wagon kits can be used for either. I think you have to be a really dedicated rivet counter to quibble about the slight difference between the two scalesfor a freelance line. Certainly, British Aluminium at Larne had a rake of hoppers that looked very much like overgrown Hudson skips. If you are freelancing a mineral hauler with a bit of a passenger service you can certainly avail yourself of anything 16mm that will take a Ga. 1 wheelset!

Peter in AZ

[HereticUK]

Yeah if I were to do this, I would create a completely freelance line which would take inspiration from real-life, but would not be solely based upon it.

This is all very useful information, however. I thank you for it! If there's anything else you can think of, then please post!

[Keith S]

I have a 15mm scale I.O.M. goods wagon on my little 16mm-ish train. It fits in well enough. It looks quite large but hey, it's a "large box van". Narrow gauge stuff is all different sizes in real life too. I don't think I have one piece of rolling stock that matches any other.

[IrishPeter]

I believe the kit is based on G19 which was one of the carriage underframe conversions rebuilt in the first two decades or so of the 20th century. The IMR started out with a bunch of 4-wh carriages, before adopting bogie stock as standard in 1876. These were close couple, but from 1903 onwards their bodies were removed and put onto bogie underframes.  This left the IMR with a lot of 4-wh underframes, so they saved some money - always a consideration for the IMT, which had 4 months of fat and eight of lean - and started building wagons in house.  They were a bit longer than the original wagons being 16'6"or 17'6" rather than the 14'-14'6" of the vehicles built as goods wagons.  I have a pic somewhere of G1 and G19 together at Ballasalla or Port Erin c.1979 and the difference in size is noticeable.  

Most of my three foot gauge wagons are a scale 13'6" - 14' (202.5mm-210mm) which seems to be the commonest length in Ireland.  Standard gauge wagons of the same era were generally about 15'feet over the beams, so 3' gauge stock is actually reasonably large by the standards of the day.

Cheers,
Peter in AZ

[SapperAnt]

Apropos nothing at all....what gauge would 3' be in 16mm? about 48mm? Only a mite out from 45mm but.....it would very interesting to have 2' and 3' to the same scale just you know for the old size comparison......

[IrishPeter]

3' gauge stock is usually a bit wider than 2'6" or 2' gauge stock, but not necessarily longer.  To take a group of vehicles built around 1905

The Vale of Rheidol's original stock was 32'x 6' (1'11.5" gauge)
The IMR saloons are 37' x 7' (3'gauge)
Campbelltown and Machrihanish 43'x 7'3" (2'3" gauge)
Leek and Manifold (2'6" gauge) 42'3"x 8'

As can be seen they are much of a muchness size wise.

Goods stock in the UK tends to be small anyway, but especially so on 2' gauge until the WDLR got to work in WW1.  I seem to think the average non slate vehicle on the Noggerbahn is about 9'6" by 5' whilst Manx 3'gauge stock averages 14' by 6'6." whilst you will rarely find anything over 5' wide on the 2', and 6' on 2'6" gauge.

Cheers,
Peter in AZ

[SapperAnt]

From the top of my head the Cleminson stock on the Southwold was c.36' over the headstocks and c.6' 6" wide.

The only surviving piece of rolling stock - a van - is 10' long and 6' wide. The original chassis, alas, is long gone!