Building a Roundhouse kit - wrong place to start?

[SimonWood]

I'm planning to buy my first live steam loco. I've been looking at the usual 'beginner' locos that my budget could stretch to.

But I saw Chris Bird's video of Katie with a Slomo (https://youtu.be/gnMEGah4cA0) and thought - that's what I'd really love to have, one day. Now, my budget doesn't stretch to Katie even without R/C and slomo, but I might stretch to the kit, and then I'd have a loco I'd be able to add the slomo to one day...

Thing is, I have no experience with live steam at all. Or building brass kits (plastic, white metal and wood only, so far).

Would a Roundhouse Katie kit be the wrong place to start? Worries are - through inexperience, I might not get as good a runner as factory build one (I might not know what to pay attention to); or I might be so slow in building I might go another season with no steamer on the line (how many hours do they take to build?) Also, to be honest, I'm lousy at painting, too, so I don't think I'd enjoy that aspect.

Would I be better off just getting Millie or Ragleth right now, have some fun learning about live steam, maybe tinker around building a 'momentum van' and save this kit idea for sometime in the future?

[robyholmes]

I think you'd be best starting out with another kit first and getting some live steam running under your belt. Maybe try hook up with someone locally who doesn't mind you learning on their loco?

I'm building my first roundhouse kit but added an extra level of complexity by also going coal fired and with a slow mo. I choose the billy kit but chassis is the same as Katie. Getting the valve timing is a hardest part. I was lucky enough to have access to my dads air compressor so I could run it on air. Still took a long time however.

Maybe look at building some brass kits, Slaters Plastikard is a good mention for that. I've built two brass slate wagons from them and have a third to do. Gives you some brass kit building experience and combine with a HGLW battery loco kit and you have a very inexpensive train.

https://slatersplastikard.com/
http://www.hglw.co.uk/

EDIT: Just looked at your blog and saw you already have a HGLW loco, so forget that suggestion ha. Check out an old video of mine which features the slate wagons behind the HGLW loco. Helped me understand how best to bend and solder brass.

[maxi-model]

What's your budget ? Are you being realistic in your ambitions ? 1st thing, if not already done, join the 16 mm NGM and get along to one of your local area group's meetings. Plenty of advise/experience and you will see a fair range of kit running to get some ideas of what is achievable.

Build a kit, certainly, if you want the satisfaction of building yourself. You'll learn a lot, like setting up the valve timing. Roundhouse is the safest bet, very well engineered and excellent support. Accucraft don't appear to make kits but supply "power units" that you can dress up any way you like if a little bit of individualism is what you want.

You can save a little money by buying 2nd hand - go through a reputable dealer or see if someone in your (you have joined by now haven't you ?) 16 mm NGM group is selling. As a newbie I'd avoid auction(sites) and anonymous private sales at this stage. Max

[rogero]

Hello Simon,

I will take a contrary view to the first response. Have a look at the Roundhouse website, under 'downloads' you will find the instruction manual for their kits.

If you have the unlikely misfortune of spoiling a part beyond redemption which I think is most unlikely individual parts are available and the R/hse people are very helpful with queries. Also if having had a try you decide it is not for you, again unlikely I feel, a goodly percentage of your spending can be recovered via the secondhand market. However as these kits rarely appear on the s/hand market it is a reasonable assumption that they do tend to get completed. Having considered the worst case scenarios the build is very much a matter of patience and applied common sense, and most importantly reading the instructions and illustrations. The kits are excellent and you won't have to face parts that cannot fit, are bent etc etc. The parts for mine came in a long strip of sealed compartments in the order of assembly, making life easy.

Just two points to add to the instructions. Drilling the return crank for the fixing pin or roll pin can be tricky when it is on the engine. Mount the crank on a bit of rod or a drill shank, 1/8" I think is the size, and drill through one part only. Then when the cranks are on the engine you have a hole ready started for the rest of the drilling, so the drill can't wander. Secondly fitting the cranks to the axles. Fit a screw only, finger tight, into an axle end to protect it, and fit the crank on the other end, check it is square, and squeeze it gently but firmly in a vice so it is pressed right home on the axle shoulder. Then having secured the crank with a screw insert the axle into the frames and do the same with the other end, but make sure the second crank is set correctly in relation to the first, and both axles have the cranks in the same orientation. Oh one other point, if the long crank pins are not fitted in the cranks by R/hse make sure you fit them good and tight, grip them without spoiling the surface of the pin, say in a drill chuck, and use a thread lock such as Loctite 243.

Yes it is nice to check your work on compressed air but not essential, just follow the instructions make adjustments if they are needed when the engine is in steam.

Painting can be a bind, but Halfords etch primer followed by colour will give an acceptable result, and it can be rubbed down and repainted again if you are not happy. Prepare by rubbing down with a pan scourer not too harsh, and thoroughly degrease. Practice spraying on a tin can.

Have a go, friends who are not at all 'mechanical' have assembled their own locos, and like me find great satisfaction in the finished result.

Kind regards,

Rogero.

[robyholmes]

Hello Simon,

I will take a contrary view to the first response. Have a look at the Roundhouse website, under 'downloads' you will find the instruction manual for their kits.

...

Just to make my suggestion clear, I was not suggesting another live steam fit first, just any other kit really. I'm all with you Rogero on Roundhouse having excellent kits and advice. Its helping me no end with my build.

Doing a few smaller wagon kits before hand just gives you a taste of how to approach kit building.

Best of luck!

[-steves-]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you actually want a live steamer and ideally not a kit, but its down to cost.
If that is the case, then I can very highly recommended any of the Accucraft locos, they are reliable, strong pullers and none of mine have ever let me down, and thsts from the 5 I have. From past readings some people can be a little too Roundhiuse fan boy and wont give anything a chance because, well, its not british, well neither is their car, their fridge, dishwasher, tv etc, and they all work fine.
Dont knock something just because its chinese, they really do work very well indeed and are well finished as the thousands sold and used prove, like everything, its just cheaper from abroad unfortunately

[SimonWood]

Thanks for the replies!

I like the suggestion of making some brass kits robyholmes - sounds obvious now you say it! But I hadn't realised those Slaters kits were brass (I thought they must be plastic). Is this the one? https://slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?code=16W01. They'd would indeed be just the thing to go with my HGLW loco (and I've already got a Coopercraft slate wagon, so it'll be interesting to compare). Whether I go on to a Katie kit or not, it'll be worth doing as well as good practice!

maxi-model - Yes I'm a member of the 16mm assoc. I haven't got along to any local groups yet, but I will! I was budgeting up to £600 so I'd have to stretch even for the kit Katie. I'm also budgeting for a line extension, so I need to decide on my priorities!

rogero - thanks for the pointer to the instructions. It gives me a good idea of the level. The instructions are clearly written, and I can follow them, but only visualise what they are describing up to a point. I do like the idea of doing a kit - but at the minute it seems to me a bit like doing a jigsaw without seeing the picture on the front... I think I'll have more confidence once, one way or another, I get a bit more experience with live steam.

-steves- It's a bit of both! I'm eager to run some live steam on my little line a.s.a.p, and I like the idea of doing a kit. Clearly the kit needs time and patience, so these are not totally compatible aims! Why I'm trying to get an idea of the difficulty is to gauge how long it would take a low-skilled chap like me to build it and therefore how much patience I might need!

I shall continue to think on it...

[Keith S]

I think it would take you anywhere from a week to a month depending on how much time you want to dedicate to it. If you work on it every night after work for two hours, it would probably take less than a fortnight, including painting. It's considerably easier and more entertaining than a jigsaw puzzle!

I built a Roundhouse Billy from kits. I had no recent railway-model building experience, although I do like to build things such as model aeroplanes and I do have some steam-powered toy engines from when I was a boy.

I think if you are generally handy and fastidious you will have no problem. The instructions are so well-written that it takes the guesswork out of the whole project. The illustrations are very good too. I was able to perform the valve-timing- probably the least intuitive part for a non-expert- the first time, and my engine's timing is pretty close to perfect, if I do say so.

I could go on and on about this but my point is, it's not at all difficult and it is very gratifying. The worst part is painting,and even that goes quickly and easily if you follow Chris Bird's advice on the subject from his website.

Finally, even if you do get hung up on a part of the project, you ring Roundhouse and someone there will help you. For me, being able to talk to a friendly person over the telephone, who quite possibly is one of the guys who helped design the locomotive in the first place, was one of the best parts.

I think the Accucraft suggestion was excellent- they do offer good-looking locomotives that run well. They are made of steel and brass and copper just like Roundhouse and are robust and high- quality. I have nothing against Chinese goods, in fact I bought my father a Chinese-made live steam locomotive for Christmas a few years ago- but building a kit will give you a sense of pride in your locomotive that you won't get by purchasing it.

Don't waste time worrying about whether you can build it. They are simple machines after all, and if you use common sense it's really quite easy.

[robyholmes]

Thanks for the replies!

I like the suggestion of making some brass kits robyholmes - sounds obvious now you say it! But I hadn't realised those Slaters kits were brass (I thought they must be plastic). Is this the one? https://slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?code=16W01. They'd would indeed be just the thing to go with my HGLW loco (and I've already got a Coopercraft slate wagon, so it'll be interesting to compare). Whether I go on to a Katie kit or not, it'll be worth doing as well as good practice!

Try this one mate:
https://slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?code=16W03
Plus the braked version for is the one I'm yet to build. With these rainy days its getter closer ha
https://slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?code=16W04

[maxi-model]

maxi-model - Yes I'm a member of the 16mm assoc. I haven't got along to any local groups yet, but I will! I was budgeting up to £600 so I'd have to stretch even for the kit Katie. I'm also budgeting for a line extension, so I need to decide on my priorities!

Quick trawl of the reputable dealers - Brand new Accucraft Ragleth £660. Don't know if this is a good price but certainly near your budget and reckoned to be a good "starter" loco from an established maker. Max

[-steves-]

I agree with the post above, the Accucraft Ragleth does come in bang on budget. If you fancied doing a bit of a build, you could always buy the power unit and then I believe there are some companies that make different bodies for it, so you could solder that up and spray it as you wanted to.

What put me off buying a kit from Roundhouse the the lack of money you actually save. If you don't already have all the tools needed to build one, you will end up paying substantially more to build one yourself. If you have everything needed, then add etch primer, paint, top coat and yet again you are not saving all that much. I read what you get as a kit, and there is no faffing with timing, they run it up on air for hours upon end to bed it in and test it and of course you have the warranty as they built it, so bang for buck, IMHO an already built loco from Roundhouse is better value unless you really really just prefer building the kits, which of course, some people do, me included, but its not a value for money approach I honestly think.

I am sure someone can chirp in with who does bodies for the Accucraft Ragleth power units.

[SimonWood]

Thanks for the Ragleth recommendations. It's certainly a contender.

With regard to the body kit idea - I'm actually more interested in putting the mechanism together, and what I might learn from that. The body kits (though I've seen nice ones) still require painting, which is the bit I'm least keen on!

I do take the point though that while I might learn by putting together the chassis & boiler kit, I might not get as good a runner straight off as if I bought a loco tested and guaranteed. I guess owning any live steam loco is a learning experience, and ready to run might be less frustrating.

Still undecided, but very grateful for all these perspectives!

[-steves-]

You could always start with a fully built live steamer and then pull it apart and put it back together, thats where I started and have learnt so much from that, but the initial taking it apart seems like a giant leap for something that costs so much. The body to be fair, well there is nothing to it, a few bolts hold them in place, then you end up with something like the Ragleth Power Unit type thing. A few twists of a spanned soon see all the pipes apart, note where they come from, lol. Then pull the gaz nozzle out, take the boiler off, again, usually only a few twists of a spanner, then you are left with a bare rolling chassis, take that apart if you want to, but make sure you have all the instructions and patience on how to re-time it if you go any further, thats where all the real workings are and that decides if it runs or how well it runs.

Decisions decisions hey. I started with a Ragleth myself, since ended up with a Caradoc (very similar except the body) a couple of Leader's and a Wrekin, all very nice running loco's. Some time in January (not holding my breath) should see me with a lovely little Isle of Man, Mannin, lucky me

[SimonWood]

Then pull the gaz nozzle out, take the boiler off, again, usually only a few twists of a spanner, then you are left with a bare rolling chassis, take that apart if you want to, but make sure you have all the instructions and patience on how to re-time it if you go any further, thats where all the real workings are and that decides if it runs or how well it runs.

Two things appeal to me about that. Firstly, you can take a bit by bit approach (in terms of how far you dismantle it). So you learn little bit by fitting a chuffer, or fixing a gas blockage (I only mention these because I've seen them in the videos) and more by stripping the whole thing down. Secondly, you've got some kind of benchmark - does it run as well as before you fiddled with it, or worse? Obviously not pleasing if the latter, but at least you've got an idea of what you're aiming for!

[tom_tom_go]

My two pence for you Simon:

Do you have a somewhere that is heated, powered and with lighting to build a kit with tools, bench vice, etc?

How much time (and patience) do you have spare from work and family life?

If the above get's you thinking then do your sanity a favour and buy something that is RTR. You can customise it later if you prefer...

From reading your blog slow running is a must for you and I see your line is ground level so your back will thank you for going R/C. But, even with R/C you will never achieve realistic slow running with non-geared live steamers running light engine through small sidings and point work like electric and DCC runners enjoy. The SSP slomo you have mentioned helps with this, however, can only be fitted if the loco has enough space between the frames (no good for most Accucraft types).

As you have an established line I would tailor your purchases to your track to get the best running experience you want. For example, 0-4-0's negotiate tight curves and point work much easier than a 0-6-0's and it shows when you are trying to achieve realistic running.

Above all though, do what you want and have fun with it otherwise what is the point...

[SimonWood]

Do you have a somewhere that is heated, powered and with lighting to build a kit with tools, bench vice, etc?

How much time (and patience) do you have spare from work and family life?

No, I don't (yet) have a workshop space - and the time I imagine using for this is mostly a couple of hours here and there in evenings. It's a point I hadn't thought of, but setting/clearing up would eat into build time... I do plan to equip my shed, but I'm hoping to run my first steamer before I get round to that!

Above all though, do what you want and have fun with it otherwise what is the point...

I'm quite keen to have fun, yes!

[Keith S]

I don't mean to go on, but I built mine on the coffee table, except for soldering and paint. Roundhouse supplies the little spanners required for the bulk of the work, and other than that a screw driver, pair of pliers and a set of needle files was all I needed. For pressing the cranks onto the axles I carefully used a vice at work. You know someone with a vice don't you?

Mrs. wasn't thrilled about the building on the coffee-table, but hey-ho.

[SimonWood]

Just to update this thread: in the end, I ordered a Millie.

I found all the advice here really helpful and it convinced me I could build a Katie - and that I'd enjoy it. It's still something I'd like to do and I plan to someday (I doubt this Millie will be my last loco!)

But I think a Millie is the loco for the railway I have now - which is still just a circuit of track! The time & money saved is needed for extending the permanent way... And meanwhile my needs from a steamer are simple - set it running round the circuit as slow as possible and enjoy it chuffing around for as long as possible while I potter around... er, I mean labour on the extension. And Millie has the industrial look I want for the kind of stock Moel Rhos will run.

Anyway, thanks again for all the advice!

[RuneK]

Good choice, I'm sure you will be happy with the engine.

[Dr. Bond of the DVLR]

An excellent choice, expect steady, dependable performance and long running times.