Garden Railway Forum

Pictures tomorrow after STIA - Call this the introduction.

Laurence happened to come across a PPS Steam Models Gas Burner for their 'Janet' locos and upgrade spares and quickly swapped it me for a rake of wagons I had.

I quickly replaced my Bix Ceramic Gas Burner for the PPS Model on Swordbreaker.

CASE NOTES:

Swordbreaker was a very Victorian temperamental loco - when it ran well, it ran eye-bleedingly well. When it struggled, it was obvious.

The two main suspicions were the fire, as often it would quickly loose pressure on a run - suggesting that enough heat wasn't getting to the boiler, and the cylinders - although expertly serviced, in my mind there was a doubt, a niggle, something I couldn't put my finger on and so couldn't relax over.

Having received the PPS Gas Burner at the works, it was obvious: this was for bigger things. The gas tank was larger than the Bix model [more gas, for more heat, to compensate for the thicker boiler of the PPS Janet?]

Secondly the firebox in the chassis - the PPS burner was 2mm wider and 2 mm longer than the Bix. It is shallower than the Bix however.

With this fire up combo, the steam raising and 'cooking time' [from cold to blowing] has bene vastly improved - from over 10 mins to 5-6mins.

Secondly - the cylinders. On the old cylinders there was some personal disquiet as the front axle wobbled ever so slightly when in the air, and there was a slight biting point. We assumed it was just the way the engine was.

Until Narrow Minded kindly suggested I check the pistons.

So I did and pretty much has a reaction something akin to'Tard the Cat'. Not pleased.

Somehow, Swordbreaker had been running with pistons one 2mm longer than the other. T'would explain the biting point and the slight forcing on the cyls which caused a little steam loss.

Needless to say, for peace of mind a new set of supercylinders were ordered. The tender read as followed:-

"One set of supercylinders as built to be fitted to a 'Janet' class loco..."

And that is exactly what I got from RWM Models He had even taken the time to check the pistons were all in good order as well.

What can I say?


Good Lord, what a transformation!!



First time with the new firebox and cylinders and the loco ran like a sewing machine - no cylinder forcing, no wheel wobble, no biting or slowdowns.....!

What can I say then?

Roy Woods Models' stuff is BRILLIANT!

Can't wait for pics doug, nice one on swordbreaker.

PPS Gas Burner - You do not say it but I assume this is a ceramic burner (the later PPS burners (now RWM) were/are a holed metal burner which I find are not as effective). Not sure I agree with your statement 'More Gas More Heat' but certainly the larger gas tank has a bigger capacity meaning it will outlast the boiler water so you need to keep a careful eye on the sight glass (I have a PPS Ceramic Burner fitted to one of my IP Jane's and the water runs out before the gas). I have the PPS Ceramic Burner instructions if you need a scanned copy (these burners were I believe originally supplied by Cheddar Models).

Dream Steam Cylinders - When you say one piston is 2mm longer I assume you actually mean the piston rod and not the piston. Still not sure how a slightly longer piston rod would cause a wheel set to wobble unless the piston is being pushed to full extension and sticking. I had a Mamod cylinder that did that and was sticking at full extension but that was only because the coupling pin on the front axle was very loose. If the coupling pins are secure on the front axle then a piston rod should be prevented from reaching full extension. As was suggested earlier I wonder if the brass big end on your piston rod has not been fitted properly.

Chris Cairns.

This is the burner currently fitted to SwordBreaker...



When I obtained it, it seemed barely used... it still had gas in it as well!

I need to respond very soon! I believe I'll do an on-the-blocks video for one and a quick chat about the PPS Burner I have. I also remembered something about DS and PPS superboilers that differs greatly.

I had forgot that this correspondence had been required....!

First off: what exactly have I done?

I swapped the standard 'small' burner from Bix for a PPS model. I also obtained new RWM 'Janet' cylinders' after finding my DS ones had pistons that were not equal lengths and likely to have been causing the 'bite' / resistance' on the stroke.

Let us have a looksee at the goods...

Gas Burner:



Much larger tank than the Bix offering. The Bix offering from cold used to use only half a barrel of water so hopefully this will last longer. Danger - it does. And if the water is preheated, it will possibly outlast the water supply! Having timed it once though, albeit with a break to fill up more water, the gas lasted for 30-35mins! [the break of course, factored out of the timing].

So in theory much better as allows more gas for 'cooking up' from cold without the need to refill the gas. More heat delivered, in terms of over time, anyway.

The burner itself...



Is shallower than the Bix offering. However it is longer and wider than the Bix offering - the ceramic burning area is about 4-6mm squared larger than the Bix offering. This came in useful. Very useful.

On the first run of the new configuration, prior to some issues, it took about 5mins to warm up to pressure  - far less than the infamous 10-15 under with the Bix gas burner. The handle seems flimsy compared to the big red gripwheel of the Bix offering, but it is actually quite controllable. It is a little difficult to find the 'absolute minimum' settig on it however.

The main 'issue' that occured afterwards of the first run was this:



The fibre washer on Swordbreaker's water glass column had fragmented and was starting to leak. I steamed the loco up thrice more with this just about hanging on. There was a steamleak and there was jets of steam coming from it, especially on the second and third runs.

However...even with this leakage, the burner at near-minimum [less than 90 degree on the handle], it only took 10-15mins to get to operating pressure. Then when at full pelt, on the blocks, it was maintaining between 40-60psi for 15-20mins at a time - even with this and another leak in the rev block.

Can you imagine what it might be like if the loco was at optimum condition ie no leaks and all systems at 100% ?  8)

I'm going to be finding out - the photo of the water glass column above shows the new washer installed today after another shipment of spares from Roy Woods Models.

However, it's safe to say that this gas burner doesn't need "ramping up" to get a good fire out of it - by which I mean one that can support the heating requirement to make enough steam to get the engine moving. So a major improvement - but not s surprising one however.

99% of people who get an MSS or original Mamod engine to upgrade usually got their equipment from Dream Steam. Fair enough, a good amount of such working well and fine. Good. I'm under the impression that the Bix Gas burner for the locos was developed especially for Dream Steam? Can someone answer this, be it yay or nay? Just wondering.

So what was it I forgot about Swordbreaker?

See the above statistic about upgrading oscillators. True it's likely given the amount of folk here. Except yours truly went completely in the opposite direction and went to PPS Steam...



So, Dec 2010 I ordered the beating heart of a 'Janet' loco for what was to become Swordbreaker.

Today I did a medium overhaul of Swordbreaker - stripdown, cleaned out the water glass, replaced the washer, claned outt he regulator and new washer in its screw, washed out the rev block, wiped the white residue off the boiler bottom, washed said boiler out with vinegar and hot water...list goes on. While the loco was apart I took the opportunity to photo the front of the PPS boiler:



A couple of us have been speculating whether the PPS boiler might be thicker than the DS one. Having felt a DS superboiler, it seemed lighter than the PPS model - sadly, I had to rely on memory and this can be flawed. I'm willing to accept the margin of error here.

But why the sluggishness? I don't have a concrete answer yet, aside from the fact that when swapped out, the PPS burner has done just as well with the hindrances, as the Bix did with optimal conditions. Which make sone hopeful that the PPS with optimal conditions will be an improvement.

Now, boilers. There's my speculation about boiler weight and possible thickness difference...and another part which makes me wonder about this is the crucial part I had forgot until James and I were chatting at our last Butterley run:

DS 'upgrade' and PPS/RWM 'Janet' boilers are rated and tested differently from each other.

DS are rated at 45psi - as sene in their page here: http://www.dreamsteam.co.uk/mss-mamod-u ... oiler.html

Whereas PPS/RWM are sold at 60psi: http://web.archive.org/web/200510280706 ... /janet.htm [it says 65psi, but in an email he tells me this was incorrect and should have read 60psi].

So, I wonder now whether the PPS burners were specially designed for their boilers, and in order to raise to 60psi operation? It would make sense and would make sense as to Swordbreaker's steaming improvement - PPS fire, PPS boiler...now all standardised to the same build/loco system as opposed to be bits from one, parts from another etc. Swordbreaker is pretty much a "Janet" [should that be a "Jenny?"] now aside from the steel wheels and rods, which are DS and Alan Briggs respectively.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regulator Interlude

http://web.archive.org/web/200509300131 ... /janet.htm < this review solves a problem: Swordbreaker has to have its regulator turned quite a bit to get it controlled at first. This concerned me, seeing the Dream Steam requiring only a deft touch. I wondered whether I had a defective needle/reg - I am happy to find out now that I do not have any further 'hidden nasties' that got away by the loco "being good if not great but doing the job if you will"...!


Cylinders from RWM

Bliss!



First impressions: they are extremely chunky. Even the port plates are thicker than any other I have encountered out there - Mamod, MSS, Dream Steam...! I have had to remove Swordbreaker's cylinder covers in the meanwhile as the new cylinders are very fat indeed!



Also, the PPS / RWM cylinders do away with an endcap that is pushfit and is now an all-one casting:



This was the case with the cylinders as sold with the PPS Janets and same now with the RWM versions.

Notably, the old supercylinders fitted were pushfit caps both ends as I discovered in November 2011 some work was required - and again May 2012 as it transpired.

The RWM cylinders appear to be wider and slightly longer than their contemporaries.

Running in has been a strange if satisfying experience however. The loco has had about four hours sofar with the new cylinders and it yet it runs smoothly when it wants to. There have been little in the way of random stoppings, leakings of steam by the pistons - yet. However the runs have not been perfect, as yes, they are new units and will require running in, plus the steampipe was slightly loose in the rev block and the washer on the water glass column had all but died, causing quite a leak at times...but still the loco ran O.o.

On my first run with the new cylinders, the loco ran like a sewing machine - and I only wish that I had videoed it as proof. I was thoroughly impressed, given what I've been told about the need to run in new parts. I am doing so and will continue to do so for a programmeof about 30hrs steaming? But it is a very good start indeed.

Perhaps with the new cylinders that were checked over by Roy prior to shipping, the 'compatible' gas burner and the 'improved psi system' [;)] perhaps the Swordbreaker can be unlocked...who knows.

I'm looking forward to it. Answers to my questions [re: boiler thicknesses, the origin of the Bix burners as sold by DS - were they specially designed and built for DS? etc] more than welcome and encouraged.

Looking at this make me think that the gas set up for my loco may not be the best. Does anyone know if you can still get these pps burners from somewhere?

Lner fan Sam:80582 wrote:Looking at this make me think that the gas set up for my loco may not be the best. Does anyone know if you can still get these pps burners from somewhere?

Meths is the way forward, you know it makes sense


(Ok, ok......has anyone seen my coat?)

Lner fan Sam:80582 wrote:Looking at this make me think that the gas set up for my loco may not be the best. Does anyone know if you can still get these pps burners from somewhere?

First of all, depends what boiler you have? As stated, it seems a tidal-wave-overwhelming majority of Mamod bashers went for the complete DS Upgrade kits. No complaint about them either, they appear to be wellmade and do the job they were designed for. If you have one, the DS/Bix ones should be fine.

I just happen to be an awkward dear. Who now is working to standardise his engine's system.

PPS Burners - RWM now sell them, but their burners don't have ceramics [I think? Maybe Roy has changed that?] Hit up this site - http://www.roywoodmodels.co.uk/ - this is the business that inherited the goodwill of PPS Steam. The later PPS burners were metal with holes and no ceramic. Oddly enough noone around had one to experiment with.

I guess though I'm pretty damn lucky to have been able to scavenge one [cheers Laurence!:yeah:] that's likely the best of both worlds!


RE Meths...

Although preferring gas [apart from filling up ] actually...don't write meths off. First of all, the original IP Jane was sold as meth fired. PPS also sold the Janet originally as meth fired with the option to upgrade to gas. Thirdly, there has been a successful firing on Swordbreaker with meths, so I am told. This however was with Dan the Man, so may have required sorcery beyond us mere mortals But apparently can be done.

Also there's quite a few methfired superboiler locos out there now and they seem to be fine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would thoroughly recommend shopping at RWM Models though - prompt service, Roys always happy to chat and advise in mail and fulfil just about any order, be it from huge parts like cyls, boilers, wheels etc - down to a shipment just full of spare washers, o-rings, and nuts and bolts.

I have the burner that is sold by Roy woods models. It has no ceramic material on it and just some holes drilled in it.

For the boiler as you know is to my own design which is basically a DS boiler with 3 small copper pipes running on the underside of the boiler through the fire of the burner to increase the heating of the boiler. The pipes will also have water in them to cycle the water around in the boiler.

Also are those cylinders the normal ones sold by Roy woods models?

I would say try your loco on Meths First Sam as it is a much more gentle flame than that of a gas burner which is essentially a gas cooker... Not tried to fry eggs on a gas loco... yet...

Meths is also considerably cheaper and you can fill up on the run

Sorry guys but this will sound like a school lesson.

PPS Ceramic Gas Burner -

dougrail wrote:so hopefully this will last longer. Danger - it does. And if the water is preheated, it will possibly outlast the water supply!

Previously posted above.

Chris Cairns wrote:but certainly the larger gas tank has a bigger capacity meaning it will outlast the boiler water so you need to keep a careful eye on the sight glass (I have a PPS Ceramic Burner fitted to one of my IP Jane's and the water runs out before the gas).

dougrail wrote:The later PPS burners were metal with holes and no ceramic. Oddly enough no one around had one to experiment with.

Previously posted above.

Chris Cairns wrote:(the later PPS burners (now RWM) were/are a holed metal burner which I find are not as effective).

Cheddar Models made a Ceramic Gas Burner for the Mamod/IP Jane/etc. (at least 2 on eBay late last year but I did not save any photos) and it is my understanding that this is where PPS got his from originally. If you use the Wayback Machine you will see they were available from PPS in 2002 (no earlier record available) when the PPS locomotive was the PPS Jenny. PPS had a gas burner available for Mamods back in his 1997 catalogue (I have no Cheddar catalogues to compare dates sadly).

Regulators - When I fitted the PPS Ceramic burner into my IP Jane I could no longer move the regulator as it fouled the gas tank. No problem I thought, take the long shaft regulator off my PPS boiler and fit it - IP Eng (which became Dream Steam) use a different thread size on the regulator to the PPS one, so I had to extend the IP Jane regulator so it operated outside the cab back (just as the PPS ones do).

Boilers - Both the Dream Steam and PPS boilers are supposed to be made from 18 swg Copper. I do have one of each but no time to check them just now, as they are not readily accessible.

Bix Burners - These are available from Forest Classics and the loco kit uses the standard Bix 005 burner with the added chassis spacer. I think it was Phil at Forest Classics that introduced the specific loco burner, but he sold Dream Steam parts as well so there was probably a mutual tie-up with Alan Dunster.

If the theory of the PPS ceramic burners being from Cheddar Models is true then you will find you cannot put the gas pipe on the Bix gas tank as they use different threads - Cheddar used 1/4" x 32 TPI, Bix uses 8mm x 1mm - Forest Classics sells a suitable adapter.

Interesting to note that the extra thickness of the RWM cylinders means your pistons are mounted further out on the front wheel coupling pins - IP Eng wheels have a shorter coupling pin so may not work with those cylinders.

And my question - Do your Bix & PPS burners use the same size jet? The current Mamod burners (for the Mark II, William II, etc.) have no marked number on their jets and I intend to experiment with a Bix & Cheddar jet but think I only have 2 sizes available.

Chris Cairns.

I didn't set this damn thread up to descend into another petty meths v gas thing. At least James had the decency to get his coat...

This was to document some of the new RWM stuff, as well as a diary update on Swordbreaker and also to highlight this new gas burner's improvement on my loco's performance. As we all know it was 'good when good but when it was bad it was very bad' [the loco in general..]

Lner fan Sam:80603 wrote:I have the burner that is sold by Roy woods models. It has no ceramic material on it and just some holes drilled in it.

This is what PPS was selling at the end of its tenure - I've heard mixed about this burner unit design and have to wonder why it's made/sold when the ceramic is apparently proven better?

Also are those cylinders the normal ones sold by Roy woods models?

Not sure, I might hazard a guess and say "these are the normal upgrade cylinders that RWM sells" but then again when I ordered mine I was very specific and said "a set of cylinders as you would fix to a RTR Janet please..." And that, proven by my photos and the sales photos of la Janet, is what I got.

Chris Cairns:80617 wrote:Sorry guys but this will sound like a school lesson.

PPS Ceramic Gas Burner -

dougrail wrote:so hopefully this will last longer. Danger - it does. And if the water is preheated, it will possibly outlast the water supply!

Previously posted above.

Chris Cairns wrote:but certainly the larger gas tank has a bigger capacity meaning it will outlast the boiler water so you need to keep a careful eye on the sight glass (I have a PPS Ceramic Burner fitted to one of my IP Jane's and the water runs out before the gas).

Agreed there. As stated, my new tank will cook water from cold, use it and still have left over when the boiler's all but dry.

dougrail wrote:The later PPS burners were metal with holes and no ceramic. Oddly enough no one around had one to experiment with.

Previously posted above.

Chris Cairns wrote:(the later PPS burners (now RWM) were/are a holed metal burner which I find are not as effective).

Cheddar Models made a Ceramic Gas Burner for the Mamod/IP Jane/etc. (at least 2 on eBay late last year but I did not save any photos) and it is my understanding that this is where PPS got his from originally. If you use the Wayback Machine you will see they were available from PPS in 2002 (no earlier record available) when the PPS locomotive was the PPS Jenny. PPS had a gas burner available for Mamods back in his 1997 catalogue (I have no Cheddar catalogues to compare dates sadly).

Now this is interesting...!! Was not aware that Cheddar Models had made 'upgrade' [or purpose built for IPE/PSS-J] gas burners. It would make good sense, as I heard tell that at one point, IPE/PPS had their boilers built by Cheddar?

Although what doesn't make sense is the burner switch from ceramic to 'pan'. Especially if the pan type isn't as good as the ceramic one. Is there a way to convert a pan burner to a ceramic type?

I guess then I have the best of both worlds...PPS Gas tank for size but somehow a Cheddar burner with the ceramic superiority. I'll bedamned. That's an excellent stroke of luck- thanks Red! Shame PPS design changed though...gues I copped lucky.

Regulators - When I fitted the PPS Ceramic burner into my IP Jane I could no longer move the regulator as it fouled the gas tank. No problem I thought, take the long shaft regulator off my PPS boiler and fit it - IP Eng (which became Dream Steam) use a different thread size on the regulator to the PPS one, so I had to extend the IP Jane regulator so it operated outside the cab back (just as the PPS ones do).

Aye, on mine the reg sticks out a fair bit - quite a long needle, especially compared to the short needle and wheel of the DS regulators. I have had to order my loco's cab in a specific order to accomodate the syphon and pressure gauge [remember, top boiler takeoff...],the lubricator, water glass and the longer regulator and now the taller gas jetpipe. I just went with what PPS supplied. My concern was'nt the physical size but the turning on it - seems to need at least 180 degree on the regulator knob to let through steam. I wondered if this was another flaw but having found that Review via Wayback, I am relieved now.

Boilers - Both the Dream Steam and PPS boilers are supposed to be made from 18 swg Copper. I do have one of each but no time to check them just now, as they are not readily accessible.

Duly noted. Anyone else able?

Bix Burners - These are available from Forest Classics and the loco kit uses the standard Bix 005 burner with the added chassis spacer. I think it was Phil at Forest Classics that introduced the specific loco burner, but he sold Dream Steam parts as well so there was probably a mutual tie-up with Alan Dunster.

Not a problem with these, I have seen quite a few that do well, and their handle is a good idea. I just wonder whether these were specifically designed for the DS loco upgrade sets. Maybe there was indeed a tieup, and these were set for the DS 45psi boilers then...again though, all hypothetical alas.

If the theory of the PPS ceramic burners being from Cheddar Models is true then you will find you cannot put the gas pipe on the Bix gas tank as they use different threads - Cheddar used 1/4" x 32 TPI, Bix uses 8mm x 1mm - Forest Classics sells a suitable adapter.

I can't quite confirm the Cheddar heritage, but I can definitely confirm that you cannot mix and match FC and CM/PSS bits as I spoke about this with Alan at PPS in Feb 2012 over the phone. One or the other I'm afraid. I seem to have copped extremely lucky and got PPS design but with the ceramic burner - best of both. Rare?

Interesting to note that the extra thickness of the RWM cylinders means your pistons are mounted further out on the front wheel coupling pins - IP Eng wheels have a shorter coupling pin so may not work with those cylinders.

Agreed. They're the thickest I've ever seen. For reference, Swordbreaker's wheels are Dream Steam's steel wheels with Briggs inlays. I have a set of hole-d IPE Jane wheels I am keeping super-spare. Could test them if I could be bothered to dismantle again -alas I did a dismantle and rebuild yesterday and got it all back.

And my question - Do your Bix & PPS burners use the same size jet? The current Mamod burners (for the Mark II, William II, etc.) have no marked number on their jets and I intend to experiment with a Bix & Cheddar jet but think I only have 2 sizes available.

Chris Cairns.

Not sure about the Bixer - Narrow Minded took delivery of SB's old Bix and installed it on one of his Twins, so would need to ask him. I'm pretty sure that the PPS one now on SB however is a 5?

Doug

Not to fan the meths/gas flame (stoopid pun intended) but I have found one thing.

The Sidestreet Bannerworks/West Lawn burners made for Mamods in the US back in the 1980s did not spill, boil out, catch the footplate on fire, short burn times, hard to fill, etc.  I never understood the fuss ......

....until I got an IP type burner in a S/H Mamod.  THEN I did see what all the (valid) complaints were about!!

Burners - So you have your ceramic burner made by Cheddar Models. Cheddar Models ceases trading in 2005 after bankruptcy, and your remaining stock runs out in 2006. No-one else has a stock burner available that will fit, so do you pay more to have a new one made, or make your own out of cheaper materials. Enter one drilled metal box burner.

Roy Wood wrote:Firstly, the standard burner of Janets is the drilled metal box but I can supply a ceramic one. The ceramic one does sit a little higher between the frames and is a bit more expensive. Personally, I'm not convinced they are worth the extra cost but am open to persuasion.

This drilled metal box burner meet the market requirement it was sold for - a Mamod or MSS modification, or the PPS Janet.

I obtained the prototype PPS De Winton. This has been through several owners and had lost its circular ceramic burner for one of these drilled metal box burners. Being a vertical boiler I found gauging the burner's performance very difficult but did find it was fitted with a smaller size jet than required. Fitting a larger size jet did make an improvement, but on fitting a Bix 005 ceramic burner there was a marked increase in steam generation, and I have now obtained the correct RWM circular ceramic burner.

Chris Cairns.

Boilers - I managed to access my boilers whilst carrying out my burner trials, so to keep Doug happy here are my observations: -

Both the PPS & Dream Steam boilers were made from 18 swg Copper. 18 swg is 0.048". My calliper gauge is not that accurate.

My Dream Steam boiler.


Across the front of the boiler it measures approx 0.0425" but it has a thin layer of paint which easily chips down to the bare copper.

My PPS boiler (the last style with the extra 2 outlets for a pressure gauge & whistle).


Across the front of the boiler it measures approx 0.045" but it has 2 coats of a thick high temperature exhaust paint.

So effectively my Dream Steam & PPS boilers are the same thickness.

However they did source their boilers from different makers over the years so there could be some variations, but that seems to be limited to the style of tubes going to the sight glass, the sight glass fittings and of course PPS supplied their boiler un-painted.

Chris Cairns.

Hmmm... This makes for interesting reading. As I have the non ceramic burner I will see how this performs on my loco. But be warned that my loco will have a home made boiler. If it works well I will keep it, if not a replacment will be made.