Hi All,
I'm in the process of building 2 Swift Sixteen coaches and need to think about painting them! I love the FR Colonel Stephens Livery, but I'm not sure of the correct colours.
Does anyone know what the FR paint codes are, or has anyone had any success in finding paint that is a good match? I don't mind what type of paint I use, other than it will be sprayed.
Thanks!
Nic
Colonel Stephens Livery
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Adam82
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MDLR
Ah - that makes it easier! IF the first preservation livery is the same as the pre-war one, you need LNER Excursion Stock green and cream........... Precision Paints do a decent sized (ie not a tinlet) tin, in a dull finish, so you'll have to varnish it. When I built my first rake in this livery, I used Midland crimson for the ends, but from memory the FR colour was more akin to red oxide.
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Marquis DeCarabas
No cream in the 1930s Noggerbahn livery. The cream was a Garraway invention.
The only relief in the Kentish Green on the sides were small enamel class plates and plain wood beading around the fixed lights on some of them.
There is a photograph I've seen recently that suggests two shades of something on the waist panels of one of the bowsiders (18, I think) that /might/ be the same red as the ends: if I find the picture, I'll scan it.
The only relief in the Kentish Green on the sides were small enamel class plates and plain wood beading around the fixed lights on some of them.
There is a photograph I've seen recently that suggests two shades of something on the waist panels of one of the bowsiders (18, I think) that /might/ be the same red as the ends: if I find the picture, I'll scan it.
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MDLR
As Alan Garraway had a "thing" for the LNER, I can understand that!Marquis DeCarabas:72391 wrote:No cream in the 1930s Noggerbahn livery. The cream was a Garraway invention.
How near to LNER green is Kentish Green?The only relief in the Kentish Green on the sides were small enamel class plates and plain wood beading around the fixed lights on some of them.
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Marquis DeCarabas
Kentish Green is a lot darker than LNE Green (thinking of LNE excursion stock green) I'll have a gander for that photo now.
Shall we start off with the enigma:
Not an especially outstanding photograph; however standard FR formation of the post-Great War years of the matched pairs of bogies (15/16, 17/18, 19/20) together as the basic unit of the set. I suggest that this picture was taken at Port in the fairly early Col. Stephens era and is of the 1876 pair 17/18 - its immaterial which one's which, so we'll say that the one to the left is 17 and the main one is 18, for the sake of argument.
17 is clearly in the very faded all over LNW chocolate plum livery, and has not yet been repainted: dating this photograph to early CS days as everything passenger was repainted quite quickly, really. We are told from the historical record that the sides were green and the ends were red - well, that's not strictly true as there were many variations, but possibly this modern picture of the four-years' younger 20 will help
Taken just round the corner form the top picture, an in 'as restored condition' note the red solebar and headstock. I suspect that not all the carriages had red headstocks - the majority being (as I think 18 is above) black - though always be wary of things looking odd in black and white photographic emulsions.
Note too that there are several important detail differences between the two painting styles (if the lighter body colour on 18 isn't an optical illusion - more on that in a bit). 20 had new outer fixed light frames and droplights at its last rebuild in the 90s, so the droplights and fixed frames are the same colour generally this is not the case if you want to make a true representation of CS livery - the fixed light frames if not renewed were almost always stripped back to bare wood and given a coat of very pale varnish, hence them appearing near-white in the picture of 18; the droplight frames were the original mahogany, so they are not green as many think but a dark purple-maroon (yes - it isn't the plum - 1860s/70s mahogany *really* does go that sort of rich "strawberry roan" I suppose is the easiest way of describing it).
It is perfectly possible that the lighter panel colour is an effect of the strong sunshine (look at the shadows in the internal partitions), but that doesn't explain why the bolections on the upper works particularly around the cant rail haven't changed colour in the sunlight: the lower works beneath the waist are not reflecting quite so much due to the tumblehome. So why haven't the bolections changed? I don't know, but I'm going to suggest the possibility that the panel colour might be slightly different. There would only have been a limited pool of colours, so it could have been the same red as used on the ends, but I've not seen other panelling picked out in the CS era in the same manner.
20, much later on than the first picture in the post - probably in the mid to late 30s (as the Great Fibber calls it: 'The Long Day Closes'), very woebegone, but the red solebar is very clear - yet the ends look closer to being the same colour as the side and I'm pretty damn sure that the headstock is black. The outer framing of the fixed lights is still unpainted wood, but looks darker as by this stage there was no-one employed at the Lodge to clean carriages or engines - there's a definite build-up of smuts on them.
Fortunately in the case of 20 we have some colour photographs to help us!
20 and rebuilt Van 5 at TyB in the late 30s, both colour pictures taken on the same day.
From the reverse angle - note that the pipes from the landers are painted green on the ends, and the ends have mellowed into a much more brownyred colour - both the 'inner' ends of 5 and 20 are just about distinguishable as red.
Of course - nothing is ever easy what about this little conundrum?:
'Old' No 2 van with either 17 or 18 behind (note no difference in the waist and upper works panelling) - so what's No 2 then: predominantly grey with red solebar, ends and green panel edging? You can *just* make out that the end is a different colour to the side and that the lander pipe is the same as the side.
There's also this one:
Rebuilt Van 4 at Port, close to the very end of the long day - ostensibly a sister to Van 5 but there are some detail differences - so what was the colour scheme on this one then? LAAEFTR...
Hope this rambling is of interest.
Shall we start off with the enigma:
Not an especially outstanding photograph; however standard FR formation of the post-Great War years of the matched pairs of bogies (15/16, 17/18, 19/20) together as the basic unit of the set. I suggest that this picture was taken at Port in the fairly early Col. Stephens era and is of the 1876 pair 17/18 - its immaterial which one's which, so we'll say that the one to the left is 17 and the main one is 18, for the sake of argument.
17 is clearly in the very faded all over LNW chocolate plum livery, and has not yet been repainted: dating this photograph to early CS days as everything passenger was repainted quite quickly, really. We are told from the historical record that the sides were green and the ends were red - well, that's not strictly true as there were many variations, but possibly this modern picture of the four-years' younger 20 will help
Taken just round the corner form the top picture, an in 'as restored condition' note the red solebar and headstock. I suspect that not all the carriages had red headstocks - the majority being (as I think 18 is above) black - though always be wary of things looking odd in black and white photographic emulsions.
Note too that there are several important detail differences between the two painting styles (if the lighter body colour on 18 isn't an optical illusion - more on that in a bit). 20 had new outer fixed light frames and droplights at its last rebuild in the 90s, so the droplights and fixed frames are the same colour generally this is not the case if you want to make a true representation of CS livery - the fixed light frames if not renewed were almost always stripped back to bare wood and given a coat of very pale varnish, hence them appearing near-white in the picture of 18; the droplight frames were the original mahogany, so they are not green as many think but a dark purple-maroon (yes - it isn't the plum - 1860s/70s mahogany *really* does go that sort of rich "strawberry roan" I suppose is the easiest way of describing it).
It is perfectly possible that the lighter panel colour is an effect of the strong sunshine (look at the shadows in the internal partitions), but that doesn't explain why the bolections on the upper works particularly around the cant rail haven't changed colour in the sunlight: the lower works beneath the waist are not reflecting quite so much due to the tumblehome. So why haven't the bolections changed? I don't know, but I'm going to suggest the possibility that the panel colour might be slightly different. There would only have been a limited pool of colours, so it could have been the same red as used on the ends, but I've not seen other panelling picked out in the CS era in the same manner.
20, much later on than the first picture in the post - probably in the mid to late 30s (as the Great Fibber calls it: 'The Long Day Closes'), very woebegone, but the red solebar is very clear - yet the ends look closer to being the same colour as the side and I'm pretty damn sure that the headstock is black. The outer framing of the fixed lights is still unpainted wood, but looks darker as by this stage there was no-one employed at the Lodge to clean carriages or engines - there's a definite build-up of smuts on them.
Fortunately in the case of 20 we have some colour photographs to help us!
20 and rebuilt Van 5 at TyB in the late 30s, both colour pictures taken on the same day.
From the reverse angle - note that the pipes from the landers are painted green on the ends, and the ends have mellowed into a much more brownyred colour - both the 'inner' ends of 5 and 20 are just about distinguishable as red.
Of course - nothing is ever easy what about this little conundrum?:
'Old' No 2 van with either 17 or 18 behind (note no difference in the waist and upper works panelling) - so what's No 2 then: predominantly grey with red solebar, ends and green panel edging? You can *just* make out that the end is a different colour to the side and that the lander pipe is the same as the side.
There's also this one:
Rebuilt Van 4 at Port, close to the very end of the long day - ostensibly a sister to Van 5 but there are some detail differences - so what was the colour scheme on this one then? LAAEFTR...
Hope this rambling is of interest.
Last edited by Marquis DeCarabas on Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Andrew
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Hello,
Wonderful photos Marquis, inspirational stuff. Love the colour ones and the one of Van 4. I'm slowly building a planned fleet of maybe 20 WHR and FR vehicles in 20s liveries, some nice ideas there to make sure they're all a little different. That enigma photo really is, isnt it? Must've looked horrible... Hadn't thought about window frames and droplights being different shades either, hmmm...
Anyway, Nic, for my FR stock I use Revell enamels from the local model shop, matt 48 for the green, matt 37 for the red. The green is a little "bluer" than some use, and is closer to the present FR's version than the WHHR's slightly brighter shade - both seem to weather to something pretty similar to the colour I use though. Similarly, the red is a little browner than some go for, but I like the effect they give together, and I prefer slightly more muted shades in the garden anyway. Haven't posted here before but I think my website address will pop up somewhere - you can see the carriages I've built so far in their FR liveries on the "Carriage Sidings" page there. Have just applied the livery to my model of Van 2, am about to slop weathering goop all over it...
All the best,
Andrew
Wonderful photos Marquis, inspirational stuff. Love the colour ones and the one of Van 4. I'm slowly building a planned fleet of maybe 20 WHR and FR vehicles in 20s liveries, some nice ideas there to make sure they're all a little different. That enigma photo really is, isnt it? Must've looked horrible... Hadn't thought about window frames and droplights being different shades either, hmmm...
Anyway, Nic, for my FR stock I use Revell enamels from the local model shop, matt 48 for the green, matt 37 for the red. The green is a little "bluer" than some use, and is closer to the present FR's version than the WHHR's slightly brighter shade - both seem to weather to something pretty similar to the colour I use though. Similarly, the red is a little browner than some go for, but I like the effect they give together, and I prefer slightly more muted shades in the garden anyway. Haven't posted here before but I think my website address will pop up somewhere - you can see the carriages I've built so far in their FR liveries on the "Carriage Sidings" page there. Have just applied the livery to my model of Van 2, am about to slop weathering goop all over it...
All the best,
Andrew
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thecsmann
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taliesin001
I found those details very interesting, especially as I hadn't seen some of those photos before. As for Old van no.2 I thought i read somewhere that it was varnished giving a 'yellow' appearence with chocolate paneling, just like one of the pickering brakes on the whr during the rainbow era. Of course this may be untrue but the colours appear very similar.
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Marquis DeCarabas
Err.. do you mean yellow panelling with chocolate edging? :?: :?:
NWNG Pickering 5/FR 9 was grey at the end according to Charlie Lee - are you suggesting that the grey was varnished giving a yellow tint.
That is perfectly possible, and I've managed to achieve it myself in experimenting with some old "non-Pale Varnish", but I wouldn't have thought (thinking aloud as a carriage painter) that the yellowing would be quite so pronounced.
NWNG Pickering 5/FR 9 was grey at the end according to Charlie Lee - are you suggesting that the grey was varnished giving a yellow tint.
That is perfectly possible, and I've managed to achieve it myself in experimenting with some old "non-Pale Varnish", but I wouldn't have thought (thinking aloud as a carriage painter) that the yellowing would be quite so pronounced.
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taliesin001
yes sorry that is what I meant. When researching the colour for my pickering brake I found that one was green and the other grey at the end, but I asked the whhr for details about the colour throughout and looked at pictures and one of them certainly was a light colour with dark edging and the only explanantion for this I found to be the yellow and chocolate mix. As it wasn't this colour at closure I presume this was earlier and weas later painted either green or grey, I can't remember which one as its been some time since i researched it. I painted mine yellow but later found out that it was actually varnished and therefore would be a MUCH lighter shade, probably alot nearer cream, but it was too late then! I believe the fr used the same thing on some of their carriages, including as it looks above, van 2. It might also explain the lighter of the carriages in the first picture, just without nthe dark edgeding, I'm not sure?
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Marquis DeCarabas
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taliesin001
I've not heard that before but it could be possible. I believed that the two toned pickering was the 'yellow' and chocolate one with the other being green, then the 'yellow' one was repainted grey at some point as it looks a slightly darker shade, maybe it was just revarnished without the dark edging? The first image also confuses me, as I personally don't think that it is the plum livery, as I thought that this was done away with just before the 1900's in place of a more basic red colour, along with the locomotives being repainted from victorian maroon into a similar shade to the carriages and that these colours had a very vague description. The upper panells also appear lighter, I guess this could be to do with the light, but would they not appear darker due to the light reflecting off of the raised surfaces?
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Marquis DeCarabas
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taliesin001
oh yes, i'm getting mixed up, but surely it would have been painted sometime between the 1890's (when they were supposedly painted a lighter red) and the col stephens era? so maybe this is in fact a varnished 'yellow' carriage instead. i've looked at some pictures and it apppears that either 19 or 20 or both had what appears to be yellow with darker edging, so possibly 17 or 18 did too, or as stated before it could just be a very faded red. are there any suggestions for the lighter panels on 18 in the first image?
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Marquis DeCarabas
Further to this matter - I've been doing some high-res scans of FR photographs for another research project, and do y'all remember what I said upthread about the window beading being a different colour to the droplights...
TyB during the old two tone era - note the cream around the droplight opening and how the fixed lights' beading is a different colour to both the droplights and the body colour.
Hopefully someone will find this of use.
TyB during the old two tone era - note the cream around the droplight opening and how the fixed lights' beading is a different colour to both the droplights and the body colour.
Hopefully someone will find this of use.
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Narrow Minded
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