Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
- gregh
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Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
I wanted another small steam loco for my indoor Claymine Branch.
And I thought an outside frame type might be different. So I purchased a Bachmann motor block from a 45t centre cab diesel. One unforeseen problem is that the wheels are quite large – 41mm dia.
Note the metal ‘ spigot’ on the motor block that sticks up.
So what loco to build? I liked the look of this “Bell” loco, so I started sketching what I could build on that motor block. BTW, I started this idea in this Topic
https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=14496
The outside frames would need to hide the large wheels, but the motor block height at 41mm (?) above rail was a bit high for a small loco. I decided that the baseplate at 43mm above rail could be partly hidden by the side tanks extending below the baseplate as per the prototype.
Like all my ‘designs’ the body is designed to fit in all the ‘ stuff’ that I need, and to allow access. Not a prototype to scale. I decided the side tanks had to hold three AA cells on each side of the loco. (I had done some tests and found that 6V would give about 25kph scale speed, so the nominal 7V of 6 cells would be enough.)
I purchased a Pololu bidirectional speed controller for use with my usual Hobbyking 2.4GHz receiver. This ESC uses a centred ‘stick’ which is pushed up for forward and down for reverse and has to be held in position. This is OK for the short indoor line. (I could remove the stick spring )
These ESC are only about 10 AUD but their limitation is a max voltage of 8V. The esc and Rx are in the boiler front and have to be inserted from the front (smokebox) because of that spigot sticking up. (I cut some of it off)
I make my own sound circuit so I can make it any size to fit anywhere – probably in one of the side tanks. The small speaker will be in the other side tank.
Here is the final design..
I had to cut off bits of the existing ‘diesel looking’ frames and springs, so that the new sideframes I make will slide between the wheels and coupling rod+weights.
So I finally put knife to plastic and cut out the baseplate from 2mm thick styrene sheet.
(I buy styrene sheet in 5’ x 3’ sheets of 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0 mm thicknesses.)
I contact glued two aluminium angles to the motor block ends to support the baseplate and to allow me to screw the whole body onto the block, from underneath.
Then I screwed the baseplate onto the motor block and somewhere I had got my measurements wrong. The baseplate was 51mm above rail – much higher than the planned 43mm and it looked horribly wrong!
to be continued when I figure out how to proceed...................
And I thought an outside frame type might be different. So I purchased a Bachmann motor block from a 45t centre cab diesel. One unforeseen problem is that the wheels are quite large – 41mm dia.
Note the metal ‘ spigot’ on the motor block that sticks up.
So what loco to build? I liked the look of this “Bell” loco, so I started sketching what I could build on that motor block. BTW, I started this idea in this Topic
https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=14496
The outside frames would need to hide the large wheels, but the motor block height at 41mm (?) above rail was a bit high for a small loco. I decided that the baseplate at 43mm above rail could be partly hidden by the side tanks extending below the baseplate as per the prototype.
Like all my ‘designs’ the body is designed to fit in all the ‘ stuff’ that I need, and to allow access. Not a prototype to scale. I decided the side tanks had to hold three AA cells on each side of the loco. (I had done some tests and found that 6V would give about 25kph scale speed, so the nominal 7V of 6 cells would be enough.)
I purchased a Pololu bidirectional speed controller for use with my usual Hobbyking 2.4GHz receiver. This ESC uses a centred ‘stick’ which is pushed up for forward and down for reverse and has to be held in position. This is OK for the short indoor line. (I could remove the stick spring )
These ESC are only about 10 AUD but their limitation is a max voltage of 8V. The esc and Rx are in the boiler front and have to be inserted from the front (smokebox) because of that spigot sticking up. (I cut some of it off)
I make my own sound circuit so I can make it any size to fit anywhere – probably in one of the side tanks. The small speaker will be in the other side tank.
Here is the final design..
I had to cut off bits of the existing ‘diesel looking’ frames and springs, so that the new sideframes I make will slide between the wheels and coupling rod+weights.
So I finally put knife to plastic and cut out the baseplate from 2mm thick styrene sheet.
(I buy styrene sheet in 5’ x 3’ sheets of 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0 mm thicknesses.)
I contact glued two aluminium angles to the motor block ends to support the baseplate and to allow me to screw the whole body onto the block, from underneath.
Then I screwed the baseplate onto the motor block and somewhere I had got my measurements wrong. The baseplate was 51mm above rail – much higher than the planned 43mm and it looked horribly wrong!
to be continued when I figure out how to proceed...................
Greg from downunder.
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
- GAP
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
Greg,
Looks interesting.
Quick question what is the part number for the Pololu?
Looks interesting.
Quick question what is the part number for the Pololu?
Graeme
From the home of the Ringbalin Light Railway
https://ringbalin-light-railway.blogspo ... -page.html
From the home of the Ringbalin Light Railway
https://ringbalin-light-railway.blogspo ... -page.html
Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
Good start Greg. I have to say it was threads like this of yours on GSC (or GSM as it was then) which got me started scratchbuilding my own locos. You have a lot to answer for .......
Rik
![:?](./images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
![:D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Rik
- -steves-
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
The only way to lower the footplate is to cut around the motor block and lower everything around it. The issue there is you will lose a lot of internal space for gear. Something with smaller wheels would help as the footplate height is usually limited to the wheel size. Does it have to be that loco for that motor block?
The buck stops here .......
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
- gregh
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
This is where I bought it. Note limited supply!
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/17616946940 ... %3A3663644
Greg from downunder.
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
- gregh
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
I'm already way down that path........... much testing of clearances to be done.
Greg from downunder.
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
- -steves-
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
I used to use those, they work very well but I eventually got annoyed with the squeal they have at low running. I swapped them all out for Deltang / Micron Radio ESC's and found I got rid of the squeal as well as I needed much less room to fit the gear as the ESC and RX are combined. Along with that I switched to Li-ion batteries and saved a huge amount of room. Might be worth a thought for this loco if you have to drop the footplate as you would only need 2 batteries to get 7.4v.gregh wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 8:12 pmThis is where I bought it. Note limited supply!
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/17616946940 ... %3A3663644
The buck stops here .......
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
- gregh
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
A couple of points.-steves- wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 9:05 am I used to use those, they work very well but I eventually got annoyed with the squeal they have at low running. I swapped them all out for Deltang / Micron Radio ESC's and found I got rid of the squeal as well as I needed much less room to fit the gear as the ESC and RX are combined. Along with that I switched to Li-ion batteries and saved a huge amount of room. Might be worth a thought for this loco if you have to drop the footplate as you would only need 2 batteries to get 7.4v.
I have more than a two dozen AA cells on hand so no need to buy much more expensive 18650 - and I will have room in the tanks for the six AA.
remembering this is just for indoor use.....
Compare the prices. Hobbyking Rx+ Pololu ESC maybe 35AUD - less than 20GBP. Deltang in UK?? in Australia ?????
Yes the Pololu do make a high pitched PWM noise. A couple of ways to 'mitigate'
1. have a good loud sound system!
2. Always choose a battery voltage just high enough to give you the top speed you want. That way you are usually operating at close to 'full on' where the PWM noise is low or off.
Anyhow, I am still progressing with the build - more dreaming than building, but getting there!
Greg from downunder.
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
- Old Man Aaron
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
You sure know how to pick an interesting prototype. Looking forward to the result, in time. ![:study: :study:](./images/smilies/icon_study.gif)
![:study: :study:](./images/smilies/icon_study.gif)
Regards,
Aaron - Scum Class Works
Aaron - Scum Class Works
- gregh
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
Thanks Aaron - the final thing probably won't look like what I started out to model.Old Man Aaron wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:38 pm You sure know how to pick an interesting prototype. Looking forward to the result, in time.![]()
Anyhow, here is the next exciting episode of slow progress.
So after the debacle I decided to cut a big hole in the baseplate to allow it to fit down over the motor block. This weakened the 2mm styrene but luckily the outside frames running the length of the loco have strengthened it.
I also had to pull the glued alum brackets off the block to re-glue them lower them. And all the side tank pieces that I cut out are now wrong size too. Grrrrr.
I used a new (to me) method from YouTube to make ‘ fillet welds’ where 2 pieces of styrene are glued at right angles. The ‘fillet’ is made from Baking Soda powder, then superglue is dripped on. It sets like ‘rock’. But looks pretty ugly.
Then I had to make a ‘bridge’ over the motor block for the boiler to sit on and attach to.
After much filing I managed to get the new sideframes to clear both the wheels and side rod/weights, but finally I could bench test it with no scraping noise.
Then it was time to solder the six AA cells together and test the whole thing on battery power with the esc and RC, and all OK! – giving 30 scale kph on 7V.
(As a side issue, I had tried to remove the coupling rod and weights to get easier access to the original side frames. I had to ‘dig’ small plastic covers off the axles. The rod+axles are then held on to the axle by screws that seemed to be Loctited on. So I decided to not continue.)
I had a leftover smokebox from a Bachmann Big Hauler and added a bit of 50mm pipe to it using epoxy, for the boiler. Then a 0.5mm styrene ‘wrapper’ around the pipe. The smoke box door is a push fit to allow the electronics to be put in. It will be superglued, epoxy, and styrene glued to the baseplate and ‘bridge’. Still looking for a suitable small dome in my spare parts boxes.
Then I got sidetracked by electronics and programming – figuring out how to get a voltage to represent speed from the ESC H-bridge. I decided to let the sound Picaxe do the subtractions of the two motor contact voltages, but it is not working.
Greg from downunder.
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
That sounds like it could be a useful trick, particularly where appearances don't matter, I'll give it a try sometime - thanks!
Looks like it's going to be a fun little loco, looking forward to watching it progress!
Andrew.
- GAP
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
Wondering if it could be filed down smooth.
Graeme
From the home of the Ringbalin Light Railway
https://ringbalin-light-railway.blogspo ... -page.html
From the home of the Ringbalin Light Railway
https://ringbalin-light-railway.blogspo ... -page.html
- gregh
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
There's hundreds of videos on youtube about baking soda and superglue like this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKu2mB1BrN0
BUT, my superglue does not instantly soak into the baking soda - more like water drops on dry soil. The superglue just runs off. Would be nice to find if a different superglue works better than the 4 tubes for $3 stuff I use.
It really is rock hard and not easy to file - the pic above shows after I attempted some filing.
If anyone does more experiments how about a separate Topic?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKu2mB1BrN0
BUT, my superglue does not instantly soak into the baking soda - more like water drops on dry soil. The superglue just runs off. Would be nice to find if a different superglue works better than the 4 tubes for $3 stuff I use.
It really is rock hard and not easy to file - the pic above shows after I attempted some filing.
If anyone does more experiments how about a separate Topic?
Greg from downunder.
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
- -steves-
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
Just use a thinner superglue. They come in different viscosities, thin is great for soaking into anything and thick is good for bridge filling. Kicker is also a good way of hardening superglue.gregh wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:43 am There's hundreds of videos on youtube about baking soda and superglue like this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKu2mB1BrN0
BUT, my superglue does not instantly soak into the baking soda - more like water drops on dry soil. The superglue just runs off. Would be nice to find if a different superglue works better than the 4 tubes for $3 stuff I use.
It really is rock hard and not easy to file - the pic above shows after I attempted some filing.
If anyone does more experiments how about a separate Topic?
The buck stops here .......
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
- Peter Butler
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
Greg, I'm really surprised that you feel the need to add this mixture. I find that plastikard forms a strong bond if a solvent (eg. EMA Plastic Weld) is used to weld the surfaces together.
Tube glues, or superglue don't have the same effect as they just sit on the surface.
Tube glues, or superglue don't have the same effect as they just sit on the surface.
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?
Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
Personally, I was thinking it might be useful in some applications where I currently use Milliput or similar. The one I'm thinking of, off the top of my head, is securing a bolt inside a (biro tube) brake column, so it can be fixed to a carriage floor. It would probably be easier to put the bolt in, fill with powder and add superglue...Peter Butler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:01 am Greg, I'm really surprised that you feel the need to add this mixture. I find that plastikard forms a strong bond if a solvent (eg. EMA Plastic Weld) is used to weld the surfaces together.
Tube glues, or superglue don't have the same effect as they just sit on the surface.
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
I totally agree with your comment Andrew and I work in a similar way, usually using epoxy adhesive etc... From my experience with attaching plastikard to plastikard using solvent, even on large section such as structures, I have found solvent works well enough on its own.
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?
- -steves-
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
As solvent melts the plastic, it creates a weld rather than a traditional glue. For this reason it is usually stronger on the weld line and it's generally the plastic either side of it that tears.Peter Butler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 3:08 pm I totally agree with your comment Andrew and I work in a similar way, usually using epoxy adhesive etc... From my experience with attaching plastikard to plastikard using solvent, even on large section such as structures, I have found solvent works well enough on its own.
The buck stops here .......
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
- Old Man Aaron
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
I tried the baking soda on my Simplex a while back, to similar effect. Not for me.
Regards,
Aaron - Scum Class Works
Aaron - Scum Class Works
- gregh
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Re: Building an 0-4-0 outside frame tank loco
After wasting a week on Picaxe programming, I finally came back to actual modelling.
I found a small dome from some old kitbash and glued and screwed it to the boiler.
I epoxied the boiler to the baseplate, with all the usual hassles of getting it centred on the baseplate, making sure it is level lengthways and that the funnel is vertical.
The firebox backplate is also a push fit like the smokebox, to allow access to the electronics in the boiler.
Then I could start making the side tanks. These had to be ‘deep’ enough for AA cells diameter– ie 16mm internal and they just fitted beside the boiler – for once my measurements worked. They were made from 1mm styrene covered with 0.5mm styrene which had the rivets embossed from the back using a dressmakers tracing tool. I made so many errors in cutting all these out that I began to wonder if I would ever finish this build.
The batteries ( six AA, NiMH rechargeables) were soldered together – 3 on each side of the loco. As usual I solder directly to the cells.
I have enough space in the tanks to be able to put the sound board in one and the speaker in the other (I hope)
By now I have the wiring diagram decided ie where things go and how to connect them and hopefully holes in the right place for all the wires.
Now it’s off for undercoating, so I can do no more work for a few days until it is really dry.
Time to make the sound board..
I found a small dome from some old kitbash and glued and screwed it to the boiler.
I epoxied the boiler to the baseplate, with all the usual hassles of getting it centred on the baseplate, making sure it is level lengthways and that the funnel is vertical.
The firebox backplate is also a push fit like the smokebox, to allow access to the electronics in the boiler.
Then I could start making the side tanks. These had to be ‘deep’ enough for AA cells diameter– ie 16mm internal and they just fitted beside the boiler – for once my measurements worked. They were made from 1mm styrene covered with 0.5mm styrene which had the rivets embossed from the back using a dressmakers tracing tool. I made so many errors in cutting all these out that I began to wonder if I would ever finish this build.
The batteries ( six AA, NiMH rechargeables) were soldered together – 3 on each side of the loco. As usual I solder directly to the cells.
I have enough space in the tanks to be able to put the sound board in one and the speaker in the other (I hope)
By now I have the wiring diagram decided ie where things go and how to connect them and hopefully holes in the right place for all the wires.
Now it’s off for undercoating, so I can do no more work for a few days until it is really dry.
Time to make the sound board..
Greg from downunder.
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
The Sandstone & Termite's website: https://members.optusnet.com.au/satr/satr.htm
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