Passing loops and brake and vans...

[alan2525]

If I'm running a tank loco with a rake of open wagons and a brake van at the back, and want to reverse the train so it's running bunker first...

...whats the procedure? If I only have a passing loop?

[SillyBilly]

Run-Round, and attach a red flag to the back.

[alan2525]

Run-Round, and attach a red flag to the back.

If I just run the loco around though, the brake van would be coupled between the loco and the wagons, not at the end of the train.

[SillyBilly]

Soory, I don't understand.

[ACLR]

I think he wants to run the loco in reverse but still be pulling the open wagons and breakvan but only has the passing loop to couple and uncouple in. I think he still wants the breakvan to be the last truck

[Chris]

Sounds like the game where you have to get the fox, the chicken and the grain across the river without them eating each other.

Think you would need to do a bit of shuffling back and fourth.

Can the loco pass the wagons to get to the break van, then take it along the passing loop, leave it on the track, and then go back down the passing loop to get to the other end of the train, then the break van will need to be hooked up.

Erm, it is sort of clear in my head, and will need a passing loop longer than the train.

[SillyBilly]

This is really easy.
1. Run Round
2. Uncouple Brake Van
3. Brake Van to other side of loop
4. Collect wagons
5. Run in to the other side of the loop
6. Couple up brakevan
7. Away you go!

[alan2525]

But then you'd have to push a rake of open wagons over the points...wouldn't that be problematic?

That's what I did with my IP Jane, just wondered if it was proper narrow gauge practice?

[made-in-england]

narrow gauge industrial railways when in origanal operation would have been very crude.
example.. Loco comes off... Go get another one infront of it to pull it back on the tracks. OR as i have seen somewhere get a JCB and pull it back on sideways!

[alan2525]

narrow gauge industrial railways when in origanal operation would have been very crude.
example.. Loco comes off... Go get another one infront of it to pull it back on the tracks. OR as i have seen somewhere get a JCB and pull it back on sideways!

I'm sure! Some of the locos even had jacks on them for sliding them back onto the rails after they've derailed. Derailments seem to be a regular occurrence on industrial narrow gauge!

[made-in-england]

yep, well most IC industrail locos are blody tuff work to restore as when they worked they where absolutly THRASHED! One of our wagons at twyford has a bent axel and after re-reailing it 4 times we just run it half on half off!

[SillyBilly]

On garden railways it can be a problem unless you have sensible radius' or Accucraft chopper. I've only witnessed one c**k up in real life that has come from buffer-lock.

[alan2525]

So accordingly to true narrow gauge practice the sequence should be:

1. Run Round
2. Uncouple Brake Van
3. Brake Van to other side of loop
4. Collect wagons
5. Run in to the other side of the loop
6. Derail wagons and or loco over the points
7. Use another loco to rerail the errant train onto tracks or drag locomotive sideways onto rails using a JCB.
8. Couple up brakevan
9. Away you go!

[SillyBilly]

No.6 only applies in silly small garden railway terms.

[garratt100]

But then you'd have to push a rake of open wagons over the points...wouldn't that be problematic?

Why would that be problematic...?


Chris

[alan2525]

But then you'd have to push a rake of open wagons over the points...wouldn't that be problematic?

Why would that be problematic...?


Chris

I'm more accustomed to a loco pulling wagons rather than pushing them, I was wondering about buffer lock negotiating the tight radius on the points of a passing loop?

[made-in-england]

Surley the Slack That was taken up in the hooks shoul tought up as it goes round th corner?

( If it makes no sense i think i know what i mean ! )

[Chris Cairns]

It all depends on the type of wagons you are using Alan.

If it is Mamod wagons then forget propelling them, as they will tend to derail.

2 more solutions to your question.

1st - run the wagons with a Guards Van at each end. Solves your run round problem.

2nd - After running round and moving the Guards Van to the other end of your run round loop, using a wire sling on your loco to pull the Guards Van back into the loop and couple up to the rear (previously the front) of the wagons. This was a practice used in Scotland (and probably elsewhere) where wagons needed to be put into a single siding which had a facing point on the single main line.

[alan2525]

It all depends on the type of wagons you are using Alan.

If it is Mamod wagons then forget propelling them, as they will tend to derail.

2 more solutions to your question.

1st - run the wagons with a Guards Van at each end. Solves your run round problem.

2nd - After running round and moving the Guards Van to the other end of your run round loop, using a wire sling on your loco to pull the Guards Van back into the loop and couple up to the rear (previously the front) of the wagons. This was a practice used in Scotland (and probably elsewhere) where wagons needed to be put into a single siding which had a facing point on the single main line.

I think I prefer running with a guardsvan at each end. They do make for interesting models too! Interesting about the 2nd option, I never realised they did that!

[PMQLR Board]

Hello, as Senior Signalman of the PMLR (along with holding many other positions in siad railway) I couldn't help glancing at your dilemma. Simple answers:
Does your railway have any steep gradients - if not then is there any real need for the brakevan to be at the end of the train?
If it does have steep gradients that are continuous throughout, then the brakevan only needs to be at the bottom (down hill end). Failing that, if you want you could claim your stock is automatically braked - that way it dosn't matter where the brakevan is, the guard can control the whole train from that one spot where his air brake/vacuum setter is. However, buying the vac pipes from brandbright involves handing over money and they are rather unrealistic on small quarry wagons.
If you must have a braked vehicle at the end of the train, could you not have two brakevans - one at each end?
Or, more economically perhaps - a proper brakevan at one end, and a pointless 4-wheel brake vehicle at the other (my railway uses a vehicle similar to those employed on the DHR in India). Or maybe a spare fourwheel wagon thats braked - the FR, WHR, TR, Corris and other railways all have small four wheel wagons with hand brakes - the guard could ride in the wagon. Or if the train is short, the hand brake on the rear vehicle could be linked with the guards vehicle by string - I gather the FR use rope to enable one brakesman to operate several brakes at once on their gravity trains.
Or you could have a three road passing loop - they are a godsend but are costly and perhaps not worth the expense if full use is not made of them.
Or you could shunt as already suggested - if you adhear to either left or right hand running only, you can create a loop, which you can carry out the appropiate shunt in, without have to propel stock around any slight curve whatsoever, hence avoiding buffer lock.
However, I would be inclined to go with a red flag on the uphill end and a brake van on the downhill end, or two brake vehicles - or with large wagons - automatic braking.
As far as realistic practice goes - if its a small industrial railway, you can pretty much get away with anything.
If its a passenger/large railway - if its a freight train as long as it dosn't derail and general line operation is safe you can get away with anything. However, if passenger vehicles are involved this requires automatic braking - basically the coaches are always between the loco and wagons.
Anyway, theres my sermon for today.
lol