Gas

[dougrail]

Hi folks,

Has anyone here ever had issues with the gas-fuelling of their engines [b/p mix or b-alone] in terms of health? On a good day out, you'll be playing trains for about 4-6hrs and needing to fuel up several times on that occasion. As as per the name, 'garden railways' - it's outdoors.

But does anyone get dizzy or light headed, h0t flushes or feelings of tiredness, or even worse, irrational nervousness shortly after, or say within 6hrs of the last gas up?

Any advice on how to minimise inhalation during filling? Hold breath, stay as far back as possible, keep cans sealed at all times...anything else?

I have to admit, I am paranoid on the issue.

Thanks for your time

[Vapouriser]

Look it up on health and safety/ risk assesment. Then ignore it. Just dont leak while a loco is passing or youmay not be able to look it ip!

[DLRdan]

4 to 6 hours of running, must me a very good day. I wouldnt worry to be honest about health stuff, you're not going to be breathing it in for long periods. Just keep away from open flames when filling and stay away from anything pot boilered.

[METHSSNIFFER]

Ask the supplier for a COSSH sheet this will detail its safe use, all gases are toxic and are hazardous to health and will cause the symptoms you describe. The symbols illustrate this on the can. Im afraid its a risk we take to pursue the hobby. Minimise the risk by fuelling in an open well ventilated space preferably down wind and dont share someone elses gas by fueling next to someone doing the same. If you feel overcome remove yourself from the area and return when the fumes have dispersed. Some day someone will develop a screw gas valve instead of the push ronson lighter valve where a length of tube can assure the user is a safe distance away. How in an exhibition hall no one has not been overcome and how its allowed shows the ignorance to the danger http://www.calor.co.uk/documents/4/orig ... sheet.pdfs

[Marquis DeCarabas]

But does anyone get dizzy or light headed, h0t flushes or feelings of tiredness, or even worse, irrational nervousness shortly after, or say within 6hrs of the last gas up?

If you'd inhaled butane you'd know immediately; and you'd have to deliberately inhale it to feel like that. Trust me; I've had a teenage stepson.

I have to admit, I am paranoid on the issue.

Sounds more like a caffeine or nicotine rush TBH - there are a couple of other street drugs that'd make you feel like that but I don't think you'd be saying anything abut those at all.

[Narrow Minded]

does anyone get dizzy or light headed,

We spoke briefly about this today Doug, but I didn't think to ask "Have you experienced this before at running sessions?"
The reason I ask is that today was fairly "muggy" (it got quite warm when the sun was out, so with the rain it was going to be humid, and of course, there was the emotional high you might have unknowingly been experiencing (and maybe apprehension at the prospect of operating in public) your new loco??

Either way, I wouldn't worry too much about the gas in an outdoor environment!

[Narrow Minded]

BTW, I meant to ask where you got your gas - I didn't recognise the cans, and alternative supplies are always a "good thing" to know about

[DolwyddelanLightRail]

BTW, I meant to ask where you got your gas - I didn't recognise the cans, and alternative supplies are always a "good thing" to know about

I did notice with gas can that I was using (cheers again for that Doug! )that it did smell different to the other gas that I use and was rather strange to say the least!

[dougrail]

Okay, general audience here.

1)Rushes. I haven't drunk anything in the slightest caffeinated in 2 years. Even Coke. and I don't smoke either whatsoever, so that rules them out.

2)Gas - It's Gaz brand, 70/30 bu/prop. I get it from Homebase DIY.

3)Smells - yes it smells.

4)Had any previous incidents? Well, possibly one when I was steaming Swordbreaker in my draughty (still likely not vented enough) garage. Also once at Llechfan I got dizzy on a running sess, could smell le gas then.

That help people?

[Sir Clothem Cap]

I don't think there would be enough gas in a vented area to allow you sufficient to cause harm. I would suggest keeping your face as far from the engine being gassed as possible would help but I'm sure you aren't deliberately inhaling it so am at a loss as to why this effect.

All people are effected slightly differently by different chemicals and sometimes being in an environment is enough to trigger a reaction mentally. I'm not suggesting that your nuts as I have a poor reaction being near anyone smoking without having to breathe the smoke.

Things that may help you are being as up wind as you can at a steam up and getting others to gas your engines.

[dougrail]

As an addendum, when I was gassing, I could smell some, but I was gassing at bent-arm's length, and I was holding my breath to boot.

MarqDC, no, I don't go for inhaling it purposefully for highs. how would you know butane poisoning then?

clothemCap, you mention a 'mental reaction' - like associative stress?

Generalwise, If you hadn't figured it out by now, yes I do have some anxiety disorder of sorts. I can be fine for days, then wham, reverse gear kicks in and I can get edgy. That doesn't help things.

[Keith S]

But does anyone get dizzy or light headed, h0t flushes or feelings of tiredness, or even worse, irrational nervousness shortly after, or say within 6hrs of the last gas up?

My wife does all the time, and she doesn't even like steam engines.

Say Doug, how much time do you spend every day thinking about trains or steam engines?

The reason I ask is, sometimes when I am in the middle of a project, (I have built my own full-sized sailboat, my little roundhouse engine and before that was quite interested in traction engines) I spend too much time thinking about it, especially when I run into a problem that requires a major decision, like what colour to paint it, or what kind of glue I should be using, etc. I get quite obsessive about it, and this makes me absent-minded, crabby, and quite honestly a little ill. I sometimes have to remind myself that this is a hobby for relaxation. Sometimes I even have to put the item away for a while. Last year while I was building the "Billy", I had to put the parts in a box, tape it up, and put it away because I just couldn't stop fiddling with it before the paint dried.

This happens every spring, too, when I am waiting for the ice on the lake to go away so I can sail my boat. It gets warm enough to do all the varnishing and painting required each spring very shortly before the season starts, and if I can't get to it, then I spend half the summer pissing around, wringing my hands, moaning about not sailing but unable to summon the energy to go to the boat and actually do the work. Then I get sick of myself, go there in a huff and spend the next week doing a rushy, bad job on the painting just so I can get in a month's sailing before it gets cold. I wind up feeling about the way you describe above.

I guess what I'm asking is, I'm not a doctor (and I don't play one on TV) but maybe you are suffering from anxiety. Maybe you are spending too much time mentally obsessing over whatever your next grand steam project is, and you need to get some fresh air and exercise, and put away the engines for a week or so.

Sometimes really good hobbies are NOT relaxing, even though they should be.

I apologize in advance if you think my advise is rubbish.

[Sir Clothem Cap]

clothemCap, you mention a 'mental reaction' - like associative stress?

Yes exactly if you expect to feel ill in a particular circumstance then you are more likely to feel ill.

[dougrail]

But does anyone get dizzy or light headed, h0t flushes or feelings of tiredness, or even worse, irrational nervousness shortly after, or say within 6hrs of the last gas up?

My wife does all the time, and she doesn't even like steam engines.

Say Doug, how much time do you spend every day thinking about trains or steam engines?

The reason I ask is, sometimes when I am in the middle of a project, (I have built my own full-sized sailboat, my little roundhouse engine and before that was quite interested in traction engines) I spend too much time thinking about it, especially when I run into a problem that requires a major decision, like what colour to paint it, or what kind of glue I should be using, etc. I get quite obsessive about it, and this makes me absent-minded, crabby, and quite honestly a little ill. I sometimes have to remind myself that this is a hobby for relaxation. Sometimes I even have to put the item away for a while. Last year while I was building the "Billy", I had to put the parts in a box, tape it up, and put it away because I just couldn't stop fiddling with it before the paint dried.

This happens every spring, too, when I am waiting for the ice on the lake to go away so I can sail my boat. It gets warm enough to do all the varnishing and painting required each spring very shortly before the season starts, and if I can't get to it, then I spend half the summer pissing around, wringing my hands, moaning about not sailing but unable to summon the energy to go to the boat and actually do the work. Then I get sick of myself, go there in a huff and spend the next week doing a rushy, bad job on the painting just so I can get in a month's sailing before it gets cold. I wind up feeling about the way you describe above.

I guess what I'm asking is, I'm not a doctor (and I don't play one on TV) but maybe you are suffering from anxiety. Maybe you are spending too much time mentally obsessing over whatever your next grand steam project is, and you need to get some fresh air and exercise, and put away the engines for a week or so.

Sometimes really good hobbies are NOT relaxing, even though they should be.

I apologize in advance if you think my advise is rubbish.

Keith, you've always been a correspondent with a valid point and thoughtful input. No need to apologise.

Your point has got me thinking. Perhaps I am overthinking stuff. Although I don't overthink about the hobby itself or trains [I am pretty much the 'I Like Trains' kid of most of my circles] - they are, mostly theraputic. I think my overthinking is on the health and safety aspects of it.

Like the gas concern. Reading last week about how those kids in Dubai got bored and died of huffing butane, coupled with my own experiences - the brief dizzy spell at Llechfan, followed by a very bad night end of November where I steamed up Swordbreaker and ended up in a bad state and finding it hard to get deep breaths. Either I /had/ gassed myself, or, I had what we call an anxiety 'flashover'.

Both can produce the headless-chicken and breathing sensations. So I stopped steaming in my garage - it's draughty but not got any excluders or working mechanical vents. I did have the door [standard person-size entry] open. But, it wouldn't surprise me.

~

Spray painting is another issue. Having read up on it, and in particular, graffiti artists who, 5-8 years after their tagging sprees / artworks, they suddenly get asthma, heavy lungs and memory/concentration loss, also got me thinking. I had been doing some spraypainting, again, in aforesaid garage, in cold winter nights. Door open but no real venting aside. Stupid me, I know.

I do have a cloth mask with a circle filter in which is supposedly for spraypainting but it seems a little flimsy. As a result, I shut down the paintworks until I received my proper half-face respirators and filters in the post. I just hope I've not done my lungs any damage.

So, that's my trains of thought. Perhaps somewhat paranoid to you hardy men of t'craft but not knowing much better or having anyone teach me, it's to me, better to cautious than take chances. You're right Keith - I do have anxiety disorder to a degree, but on most things I can keep it in check. Only things recently are chinese food and doing gas-stuff that can potentially get me 'wound up'.

Doug

[Keith S]

Well, the first thing you've got to realise is that the kids who were "huffing" butane were breathing it directly from the can. There is a problem in some of Canada's remote villages with children who "deliberately concentrate and inhale" gasoline fumes. It's not that they were walking by the butane or whatever and happened to smell some. There was no air in their lungs, only butane.

Spray paint on the other hand, you should be wearing a mask.

If you really feel that steam engines are making a fug indoors that is making you feel sick, I would submit that it's not the butane itself, but rather the oil in the steam exhaust that is making things stuffy. I originally thought gas-fired steam engines would be practically odourless, but discovered after firing mine for the first time that all the oil in the steam gets into the smokebox and is incinerated by the hot butane exhaust, making an authentic-smelling white smoke in the chimney. It can stink up the house pretty quickly. Also I wouldn't be surprised to learn that steam engines create some carbon monoxide, too.

Best run 'em outside I think. But I doubt the butane itself is causing you to feel funny.

[dougrail]

Well Keith, that's a thought. After the November spell, I did resort to outside steaming only. As for the huffing...well now - no, no inhaling of cans here just feeding the wee engines, like every pro garden driver - no messing about here!

Just thinking about all this is making me ill I hafta admit. Time for a break?

[MDLR]

I'm inclined to agree with Keith S. Given that there have been many thousands of gas-fired locos built and operated, if there were going to be issues with people being affected by gas / fumes they would have risen their ugly heads years ago. Now coal firing - that's a different ball game entirely!

[dougrail]

This is very true chap. We're in the what, fourth decade of gas-firing now? This is a valid point.

I must say I only fire up when I'm out and about - Butterley or Llechfan now - not having a railway myself...

[TonyW]

Now coal firing - that's a different ball game entirely!

Better or worse than meths?

[MDLR]

Much worse - especially when you put smuts on the ceiling (as somebody once did when the AGM was held in a hotel just outside Coventry - Before Stoneleigh!)