Garden Railway Forum

All looking Grand there!

Not going anywhere for now

Well, that’ll teach me… Running upside down on the table top does not constitute effective testing of motorblocks — as I’m sure you all take for granted. Once properly installed and all Deltanged up, outside on the track forward (or reverse) progress proved problematic. The power car itself is hardly lightweight (which, in fairness, is how the motorblocks were advertised) — let alone with the trailing coach(es). More grunt required.

A single LGB alternative (unfortunately rather more expensive than I would normally consider) isn’t quite the same size, so new bogies and other modifications are now needed. It won’t sit there making unfortunate fizzy noises without moving, I hope, but I think any notion of three or four car Thumpers is probably out the window.

I had hoped to post a video today…

That's a shame. How frustrating! Mind you, I think we've all been there at some point (my first railbus springs to mind!).
Fingers crossed the lgb block does the job. I would have recommended visiting the G-Bits website for motor blocks and other bits and bobs but he seems to have ceased trading

Rik

These things are sent to try us Bertie. I'm sure you'll find a solution to the problem. As you're running on 45mm,there is a chap who makes powered bogies - there is a thread on here somewhere about them. May be just what you are looking for.

Edited to add - the thread concerned is https://gardenrails.org/forum/viewtopic ... 49#p167249 Tim Gleed-Owen is the chaps name.

Wow. The Appletree stuff looks really useful, I wish I’d taken note of that. But I’ll have to go with LGB on this one — and probably the next too, as I’ve already gone and thrown this year’s discretionary spend at more motorblocks. The stuff I’ve liked to use seems to be becoming generally more difficult to find (and increasingly expensive).

It’s a shame about G-bits, who’ve helped me out a lot in the past. I hope he’s OK.

BertieB wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:49 am Well, that’ll teach me… Running upside down on the table top does not constitute effective testing of motorblocks — as I’m sure you all take for granted. Once properly installed and all Deltanged up, outside on the track forward (or reverse) progress proved problematic. The power car itself is hardly lightweight (which, in fairness, is how the motorblocks were advertised) — let alone with the trailing coach(es). More grunt required.

When it comes to powering model locos and power cars, there's no such thing as too much grunt.......

LGB use good quality Buhler motors and decent gears and they usually fit traction tyres, so I'd think one of their motor bogies should do the job. I've seen their diesels pulling quite long trains at local exhibitions.

A cheaper alternative to LGB for future models may be USA Trains motor blocks, which are similar to the LGB design. They are available in the UK I think.

I'd suggest knocking up a simple chassis from a bit of plywood, fitting the power bogie and a dummy bogie and powering it with a battery pack and an on off switch. That will quickly tell you what it will pull out on the track and what weight you need to add for traction, before you have to launch into modify the existing DEMU power car.

The third photo down in my post on the walkers diesel https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12986 shows the sort of thing I mean. Not elegant, but it doesn't have to be to do the job.........

What weight is your power car and the trailers and what sort of gradients do you have on your track?

As an example, the nearest thing I have to your DEMU is my Walker railcar. It has a single motor bogie with a 12V 385 size motor, worm drive, both axles driven and the adhesive weight (weight on the power bogie) is 2kg.

The drawbar pull of the railcar is about 500g, so it would be capable of pulling my 10 bogie wagon goods train and getting it up a 1:50 grade. The bogie wagons weigh about 1kg each. It would look silly doing it, but it has the adhesive weight and motor power to do the job.

Regards,
Graeme

GTB wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:27 am “…there's no such thing as too much grunt’

Thank you. I did experiment with a very similar test ‘mule’ some years ago, as you suggest. I’ve got complacent though, having since made a few overpowered, double-power-bogie locos, largely because it was good fun and (used to be) reasonably affordable to do it that way — and, I suppose, slightly more practically because virtually all my (short) track is on a gradient — much of it somewhere around 1:30.

At present, prior to dismantling, the power car weighs around 2.3kg, without seats or passengers (or chunky Bluetooth speaker delivering thumping bass). Similarly, coaches are presently each about 1.4kg. I hope to have four of them.

The intended LGB replacement motorblock has turned up and, kind of inevitably, due to dodgy guesstimates, doesn’t really fit as I’d hoped (ideal for another project I’m working on though). But strangely, as you also suggest, I stumbled across a pair of very promising, small USA Trains motorblocks (thin on the ground here) which should be just about right, I think. Lengthy DEMUs could be on again!

There's not a lot of options in the garden scales when it comes to rtr power units for battery powered models. Even when you make your own mechs as I do, sourcing decent quality gears and motors means the cost is still fairly high. There was no choice with the big diesel, as no suitable commercial mech had anywhere near the required bogie wheelbase.

My education and profession predisposes me to plan and test things, but my scrap box still sits there and constantly reminds me why I really should resist the urge to just bore ahead on a new project, sigh.....

I've not used USA motor bogies, but they are designed for US diesel loco models in gauge 1, so I would think they'd be built robustly for moving long heavy trains.

Regards,
Graeme

GTB wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:14 pm There's not a lot of options in the garden scales when it comes to rtr power units for battery powered models. Even when you make your own mechs as I do, sourcing decent quality gears and motors means the cost is still fairly high. There was no choice with the big diesel, as no suitable commercial mech had anywhere near the required bogie wheelbase.

My education and profession predisposes me to plan and test things, but my scrap box still sits there and constantly reminds me why I really should resist the urge to just bore ahead on a new project, sigh.....

I've not used USA motor bogies, but they are designed for US diesel loco models in gauge 1, so I would think they'd be built robustly for moving long heavy trains.

Regards,
Graeme

I am currently trying to power an OcCre San Francisco Streetcar, that is powered via bogies, and I agree, finding wheels, axles, gearboxes, and motors that all match is not easy. My 2 problems have been axle size 1/8" vs 3/16", and finding everything I need in the same size, and once you have the gearbox, a motor with the correct mountings. But I will persevere and overcome the issue.

Something to be aware of, with USA Trains motor blocks, as opposed to LGB :

The LGB block, is directly 'bolted' to the chassis / bogie.
The axles just run in the channels in the block. - No bearings, as such.
The plastics used, are pretty robust, but will eventually wear, and this can be a problem, on a used / abused block.

The USA Trains block, has extended axles, and is designed for these to run in journals / bearings, and this is how the block is supported / mounted, in side-frames, on a 'cradle' which runs over the top, providing the mounting and pivot to the chassis.
I am not convinced that the plastics of the USA Trains block, is as hard-wearing, as that from LGB?

I think this should be taken into account, if building a heavy model (or one which will be heavily loaded) to avoid wear to the block.

Phil.P

Phil.P wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:20 am Something to be aware of, with USA Trains motor blocks, as opposed to LGB :

The USA Trains motor blocks have brass bearings for the axles inside the plastic block which take the loco weight. The extended axles are actually part of the pick-up system and the 'bearing' in the side frame moulding acts is a slip ring to pick up track current from the axle extension. The slip ring isn't weight bearing to any extent and isn't needed for a battery powered model.

Another rtr option for powering 45mm gauge models would be Piko motor blocks. These are similar to LGB, but have ball bearings on the axles and seem to be somewhere between USA Trains and LGB in price.

Graeme

Whoa! For a moment there I was a little worried. Have I already sabotaged my new motorblocks?

Yes I have! Well, perhaps. Unfortunately this photograph, taken having removed the track pick-up skates, does not show brass bearings.

The first thing I did after opening the box, was to saw off those silly journals, of course. What the hell. Worst case will be that it’ll just last ten years rather than fifty. To be perfectly honest though, I’ll think it’ll be fine. It certainly seems pretty solidly made, plastic or not.

As suggested, I’ve used several motorblocks from Piko in the past (which I’ve never had any sort of problem with) it’s just that in this case they don’t have anything of an appropriate size.

(I seem to be going through an extended, accident-prone, Mr Bean phase at present)

Newly installed motorblocks required a new bogie design and some minor rewiring. Previous ones (left) should end up under new ‘lightweight’ rolling stock eventually, I’m hoping.

Seating is much simplified (and a bit crude) but you’re not going to be able to see too much of it through passing coach windows. You’ll be distracted by the luridly presented passengers anyway. Picture is of (now modified) prototype.

I’m astonished how many views this thread has — this might stop it! Rather than conscientiously getting on with all those responsible, grown-up things we should all be doing — why not do a video?

It can be a trailer for the inevitable (though presently wholly theoretical) noisy DEMU extravaganza. Black and white because the empty (cream) interiors seem much less obvious that way. And because, why not? With amazingly apt, thumpy music (play loud, best headphones, 1080 HD, etc, etc). Hope you like it.

Update I've swapped the video for a re-edit with some shots with more coaches. And where I actually remembered to use a tripod.
Update again If the ‘edited XX times in total’ figure (below) continues to increase, it’ll be because I keep fiddling with the video and uploading a mildly revised version…

The units look fabulous and the video likewise. Can't comment about the music because I always have the sound off anyway.

BertieB wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 11:52 am Newly installed motorblocks required a new bogie design and some minor rewiring. Previous ones (left) should end up under new ‘lightweight’ rolling stock eventually, I’m hoping.

Obviously the new power bogies have enough grunt to run a two car set on your track. Have you been able to do a four car load test yet?

I was intrigued and did some poking around in the service parts section on the USA Trains website and it seems that not all of their motor blocks are created equal. The local supplier only lists the ones with brass bearings, one wonders why........

My models are lucky to run once a year and usually on my elevated track, so plastic bearings would outlive me. As the yanks say, 'your mileage may vary'.

Regards,
Graeme

ps. The VR had a handful of EE built d/e shunters with 6KT engines on the broad gauge and that DEMU sounds much as I remember them. The VR maintenance tradesmen hated them with a passion......

GTB wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 12:57 am "Have you been able to do a four car load test yet?"

I have! The following evening I had another go – and got the tripod out this time.

I’ve re-edited the video (and the link on the posting above), exchanging the naffest shots for three- and four-car alternatives.

Now that I’ve seen the four-car unit actually trundling about I’m inclined to think it looks a bit too much, at least in my garden. Longer track and gentler curves would help. The USA Trains motorblocks (with a 12v battery-pack and Deltang set-up) have more than enough grunt and poke. I actually have to be careful.

To my eye, either 2 or 4 car units look best. The 2 car looks like a self contained 'DMU' and the 4-car looks like a train, whilst the 3 car looks as though there is something missing. However, they all look good.

Very nice!

2 or 3 for me, like the Hampshire Units... I'm now very much looking forward to the next video...

BertieB wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 1:30 pm Now that I’ve seen the four-car unit actually trundling about I’m inclined to think it looks a bit too much, at least in my garden.

Can't help you with that, the VR only used their rail motors for light traffic. I'm used to single power cars, sometimes with a trailer, or a van for parcels and light goods.........

You are the best judge of how it fits in your garden. However, you now have a power car that can easily handle a four car set if you visit a large track for a running session.

My approach to engineering a model loco is to make sure it has about twice as much power as needed to run scale length trains, up to my track maximum of 10 bogie vehicles, or 20 four wheelers. That way I get long runs and the mechanical bits aren't overworked, so don't wear out quickly.

Good stuff.......

Graeme

Well, I don't mind 2, 3 or 4 car sets, but I think 2 or more trains next to each other in a yard setting, or multi platform station, would look exceptional! Looking forward to the colour version.