Garden Railway Forum

Big Jim wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:39 pm

What I've still not been able to pin down is why many 16 millers would not contemplate running a battery powered steam outline loco.

Ahhh, now that is something I have been thinking about. I think it may have something to do with a perceived idea that if it is in the garden and it looks like a steam engine then it should be a steam engine. Now I used to think this way until I saw some of the models built by people like your self and Mr. Butler. For me this may stem from the fact that it is easier to get a i/c model to look like the real thing in 16mm scale than it is a steam engine. Many small i/c engines are boxes on wheels and it is a more straightforward thing to build as you don't have to worry about valve gear and other moving parts.
I do wonder if the attraction for many people who build a garden line is the fact that they can have live steam. This was what got me into it, when I saw my first Live steam NG loco years ago that was the attraction, if I wanted electrically powered locos I could stay indoors.
There is also the possibility that the market is geared more towards battery i/c rather than battery powered steam. Until PDF models started bringing out their range there were very few suppliers who produced kits that were steam outline. However, there were lots of companies, large and small who would sell you bits to built an i/c loco.

Hmmmm .... that's a useful insight. I'd seen live steam locos but, other than Mamod, felt they were well outside my budget. Budget has always been a significant factor and so, when I wanted a new loco, I'd have to make it myself and, like Peter, my skills only extended as far as plastics and wood (with a bit of kitchen table metal working). As Peter says, this medium does not lend itself to gas, meths or coal as a power source.

Rik

Lovely photos!

I can see from Dazza and Tom's responses that there is an emotional component associated with running a live steam loco which can't be replicated in any other way. Presumably this emotion is only inspired by steam power?

Rik
PS As Tom says, wonderful photos.
PPS Does that mean I'd have to get up at 3.00am to get the full experience the next time I run my live steam loco?

Not just live steam, a class 37 starting up and rumbling along with clag is just as interesting.

No one as yet has managed to bring a RTR live diesel to 16mm scale that does not sound like a lawn mower.

This has been an interesting read, particularly as live steam has become something of a novelty in my group of late most preferring their battery powered locomotives in all outlines (steam, diesel and electric). In the past couple of years I have noticed that I have been making use of my diesel and electric outline locos more than my live steamers, I get the same enjoyment watching them snake their way around the garden without the wait of a steam loco to get up to pressure. I'm also a keen gardener and usually have something to keep me company, it's very rare I have a run just for the fun of it these days as I can normally find other things that need doing. A battery loco fits this well with run times around 6 hours rather than 40 or so minutes of a steam loco. There is a PDF models Hunslet currently being built and a vintage model of Blanche in Ffestiniog form, both battery powered.

I was a very early adopter of electric power in R/C flight and sold off my IC engines straight after having flown my first electric model. Therefore I'm very familiar with the various types of cells, chargers and R/C equipment. I also have some manufacturing capabilities. I wonder if the world is ready for more steam outline electric kits? Maybe they aren't popular because of the lack of commercially available items? Perhaps cost is a factor? I don't know. What I do know is that a loco kit can be put together quite cheaply if it doesn't have to be all steel and brass (and no reason why it needs to be since there is no heat or oil involved). IIRC there were some printed cardboard kits available some years ago.

ge_rik wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:21 pm I can see from Dazza and Tom's responses that there is an emotional component associated with running a live steam loco which can't be replicated in any other way. Presumably this emotion is only inspired by steam power?

Rik
PS As Tom says, wonderful photos.
PPS Does that mean I'd have to get up at 3.00am to get the full experience the next time I run my live steam loco?

Many get wet and sticky when they hear an English Electric notch up.
One day the punters will get wet and sticky when they hear a big Electric hum under the cantenary, (you would wonder why but life is like that)
So the emotion can be found in all forms.
It is about having fun with some satisfaction and intrinsic rewards.

A wise woman once said to me, the most important part of having fun is having the wisdom to pause, contemplate, appreciate and recognise, "that this is fun and a good moment of life"

PPS. For a partial experience, at least get dressed up in the kit and pull the fob watch out of the pocket to check the whistle out time from the steaming bays

Rik,

You asked about the attraction of live steam.

An idea to help the analysis. Emulating what you like about the hobby but with steam instead of electric

As well as prompting this discussion you could do a live experiment. e.g. You could run your schedule with live steamers. This would present new logistical problems (a harder planned schedule to conceive, loco preparation time, siting and delivery of resources, coordination) and you would probably need a number of operators. It may provide a new insight.

I started out with a LGB starter set which we still run and I also run live steam. Love them both for different reasons.

Dave

ge_rik wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:54 am I have explored live steam, but there seems to be a lot of initial faffing around, followed by twenty minutes of intense activity where it's difficult if not impossible to get the loco to run reliably at a realistic speed, and then the faffing is repeated. Live steam locos seem to be extremely demanding but to my mind give little in return.
Rik

There's also a lot of nervous excitement beforehand too, which must afterwards result in the release of endorphins, which makes it addictive. You haven't been experiencing this with battery powered of course

I love the faffing around so much that I can just run round my loop with a big grin on my face.

I love all the controls, and add more. Even to my simple little De Wintons, I added blowers, pressure gauges, blowdown valves, adjustable lubricator, re-routed the exhaust. I just wouldn't be satisfied with a commercial gas fired steamer

Overnight, I've been trying to decide if I get the same sort of emotional hit which Tom, Tag, Dazza and deWinton Dave have described when I run my 'soulless electric mice'.

I suppose my emotional involvement comes from the satisfaction I get in watching a train which is entirely of my own making meandering its way at a realistic speed through a landscape which I have created. With soundcards, there's also the aural component which adds to that experience.

Does the fact my stock are not perfect scale models or my locos electrically powered rather than steam powered diminish the buzz I get from all this? No, I don't think so.

Rik

DG wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:05 am As well as prompting this discussion you could do a live experiment. e.g. You could run your schedule with live steamers. This would present new logistical problems (a harder planned schedule to conceive, loco preparation time, siting and delivery of resources, coordination) and you would probably need a number of operators. It may provide a new insight.
Dave

Hi Dave
I think I would have to start off with just one live steamer, maybe running the copper ore skips to and from the mine. Sounds like trying to organise four live steamers and their drivers might be a bridge too far initially.

Rik

IMHO nigh on impossible.

Well, if nothing else this thread has certainly promoted some spirited and emotional responses. I don't ever recall seeing such before, four pages of replies in just over one day and so far no real answer to Rik's original question. Personally I run both live steam and battery electric steam outline depending on the time available, steam for preference but there are numerous occasions where the rapid convenience of battery electric is hard to beat. Also thinking about the members of my local area group (north west Norfolk) I would say that there is more live steam than electric but as to why, maybe a question I will pose at our next get together later this month.

I just now got a flash of inspiration in the shower (no bawdy comments please).

I think the main difference seems to one of emphasis. In my posts, I think I keep mentioning the importance to me of the 'train' whereas for the live steamers their focus is inevitably on the 'locomotive'. When I've run my live steam loco and when I've been with live steam 'drivers', everything else seems to be eclipsed by the loco. The rolling stock is secondary and the notion of shunting wagons into an authentic roster is a rare occurance.

For me, the train is the focus. The loco just happens to be the bit of that that marshalls the stock and leads it from one location to the other.

When browsing through books on railways, I seldom loiter over photos of locos but I will spend ages poring over pictures of station yards or trains of mixed goods.

Rik

Rik,
Thats exactly the point I was trying to make, diplomatically, in my post yesterday and 4 pages ago! For me, it's always been my goal, in whatever scale I'm working in, to create a model OF a railway and not a "Model Railway". That is the beauty of being outdoors, it allows for space which the indoor scales can never have, but for me there is no overriding reason to go live steam simply because it is outdoors.
I can now hear the screams about me saying "model of a railway" and therefore it should be live steam steam loco's only, but that is no more valid than saying meths or gas fired should be banned and only coal fired allowed.

PS I also agree with you about the more interesting book pictures.

Not wishing to offend at all Rik, but I remember watching your speeded up video of a running session which showed you putting out various buildings, and assembling lines of wagons ( you surely must have one of the largest rollingstock rosters ) and whilst enjoying the video thoroughly, I couldn't stand all that "faffing about" before I run a train.
Having chosen a narrow gauge theme, and as much of our narrow gauge in Victoria ran only one engine in steam, I feel I can emulate that well. Also while I do love working the loco and driving by hand I've still got to make sure wagons are in the right order to come off where required, stock car immediately behind loco etc.
Running frequently reducers the faffing time immensely, I regularly find at exhibitions that I can get a train together, raise steam, and be running before many have signed on the register, and fill in gaps if someone is having trouble.
I guess we all have a different priority for doing what we do, and how we do it.
Grant.

If there was no live steam option for garden rail, I would probably try an electric railway/tramway in G1 or similar using 3rd rail or catenary.
For some reason the larger the scale the less I like the idea of something pretending to be what it's not. In 2mm/3mm/4mm scales I'm quite happy to suspend belief and accept a 'steam' locomotive powered by electric. I would expect everything on an N scale layout to be electric; different art form.

I have a partly built 'diesel' railcar which runs on an IP battery unit and I'm in two minds about that. It's not diesel, so I'll always feel it's a bit of a pantomime horse. On the other hand I've converted a Lost in Space chariot into a P.W. inspection vehicle which also runs on an IP unit and I'm quite O.K. with that!

Having said all that I admire the videos from the Peckforton line where the trains run at realistic speeds through a beautiful sylvan setting, exactly what you'd expect from a rural narrow gauge line.

LNR wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:38 am Not wishing to offend at all Rik, but I remember watching your speeded up video of a running session which showed you putting out various buildings, and assembling lines of wagons ( you surely must have one of the largest rollingstock rosters ) and whilst enjoying the video thoroughly, I couldn't stand all that "faffing about" before I run a train.
Having chosen a narrow gauge theme, and as much of our narrow gauge in Victoria ran only one engine in steam, I feel I can emulate that well. Also while I do love working the loco and driving by hand I've still got to make sure wagons are in the right order to come off where required, stock car immediately behind loco etc.
Running frequently reducers the faffing time immensely, I regularly find at exhibitions that I can get a train together, raise steam, and be running before many have signed on the register, and fill in gaps if someone is having trouble.
I guess we all have a different priority for doing what we do, and how we do it.
Grant.

Hi Grant
From what I've seen (and admired) about your railway, I think you seem to have an ideal compromise. You create real atmosphere - in the complete sense - of running a railway and use live steam to achieve it.

Maybe one of the real issues is what we each regard as 'faff' and our tolerance to it. In an ideal world, I would leave all my stock outside between operating sessions so that I could resume operations where I left off. Setting out and gathering up the stock (and buildings) is a faff I have to put up with to achieve my objective of running a complete light railway in miniature.

In the days before I had an outdoor railway I had a neighbour who, like me, had built an 00 gauge model railway in his loft. When I described one of my operating sessions (with timetabled trains and shunting operations) he was horrified by what he regarded as my faff. An operating session for him was running a series of pre-assembled trains from his fiddle yard around his layout. His only concession was to pause some of the passenger trains in the station - goods trains trundled through without ever stopping.

With my indoor railway, I could leave all my stock in the sidings between operating sessions but, even in the loft, the railway was only a small section of a complete railway system (a through station, a branch station and a fiddle yard), whereas in the garden I have been able to recreate a whole light railway system in miniature.

Rik

ge_rik wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:38 am For me, the train is the focus. The loco just happens to be the bit of that that marshalls the stock and leads it from one location to the other.

Rik, you aren't alone out there in running steam outline electric locos. Accucraft make at least some of their scale models available in electric versions, especially in the US market. I know one garden railway owner who only runs steam outline locos that are powered by electrickery and I know he would freak if I rocked up with a steamer expecting to be able to run it.

in my 50+ years in the hobby I've met three basic types of railway modellers, the scale makes little difference.....

- Operators, whose main interest is in running their own railway. The train is the thing, the loco is secondary. In some cases signals are the thing and the trains are secondary.

In the small scales I've visited model railways where the trains were all old well used Tri-ang, but run to a strict timetable, signals, bell codes etc. One of them didn't even have scenery, but did have working miniature staff machines. I also have friends who model a specific railway with fine scale models, who get together every week to run to a strict timetable, following the real railway's rule book.

- Builders, whose main interest is in the model making process. I know some whose only layout is vertical, ie. a glass display case.

-Collectors. If you can't build trains, but love them, then you have to buy them, but the collector gene is strong in humans and can take over your life. Been there, done that..........

All the railway modellers I've ever met basically fall into one of those groups, although often with at least some overlap into the other two.


Me? I'm firmly in the builder group and the main reason I now model live steam in large scale is to keep busy in my retirement doing something I enjoy. I have neither the skills, nor the eyesight, to get them to work in HO. Anything bigger than 2 1/2" gauge is hernia country anyway and I don't have the space, or the time left to build in the ride in scales, so 15mm/ft is an ideal size for my purposes.

As Grant will tell you, I have close to zero interest in operating and I can't stand gardening. While I will probably build a track out the back it will be just a raised test track that I can use for testing the steam powered locos I build.

I never knew the VR narrow gauge, as I grew up in a house across the road from a broad gauge mainline in northern Victoria. My idea of a real train is two big 4-6-4 locos blasting up a 1:70 grade with 1500+ tons of wheat behind them. I don't have the space and won't live long enough to reproduce that in Gauge 1, so I keep my mind working and occupy my time in the workshop building ng steam locos and rolling stock.

I'm happy being the CME in my own little world, rather than the Chief Traffic Manager, but it would be a pretty miserable world if we were all expected to be the same. Although the self appointed anti-fun brigade in this hobby would love to see that happen.........

Regards,
Graeme

Live steam is the exception over here. Same goes for battery/rc equiped lokies (diesel or steam outline). The majority of modelers on this side of the pond are still running track power. Guys here are ga-ga over Bachmann shays and other large scale steam outline engines on the market.

I think the primary consideration is the level of ops being done on the layout. I enjoy watching live steam videos and have noticed that most are of solitary engines and if they are pulling a string of wagons... not doing any switching. Live steam does not lend itself to switching ops before the fire goes out. So when I run my steamer, it's just for the fun of watching it do laps.

Like Rik, I'm more interested in ops. I think this makes me a model railroader which is what I've been doing since my introduction to model trains as a little boy down in the basement nearly fifty years ago.