Meths Supply

[TonyW]

Methanol is meths ethanol is a solvent and will kill as all chemicals will if ingested, but we are not talking about drinking it here. Its about the efficient burn and its safe use. I think if we all took your advise or listened to it we wouldnt dare steam an engine up.

Well, thanks for that vote of confidence.

I had my first meths-fired Mamod TE1 in 1965.

I had my first meths-fired 16mm loco (Roundhouse Dylan) in 1988. There was no alternative to meths back then.

In my earlier posting I mentioned that methanol is not an efficient burn, and gave a link to a web site backing up what I said.

I never suggested that YOU would drink methanol, merely that SOMEBODY might. Methanol will kill. Meths will give an upset stomach (if it can be swallowed without gagging due to the taste and smell). If SOMEBODY drank your methanol then you would be responsible for the outcome.

The use of meths-fired locos at, say, the Stoneleigh Show was banned for a number of years. Two years ago they allowed meths locos back in, but they are strictly supervised with suitable fire precaution and fighting gear.

I do not understand what "Methanol is meths ethanol" means. Methanol is methanol. Methylated spirit is ETHANOL with the nasties added that TommyDodd wrote about.

The manufacturers of locos will say "Our product is only suitable for use with methylated spirits". Nothing more, nothing less.

The 16mm Association would say "Only use methylated spirits" otherwise they would probably be in breach of their insurance policy.

Shall I go now?

[Narrow Minded]

Oops! Getting a bit "HEATED"!

Lets not get too argumental, everyones input is useful, and until somebody comes up with the definitive answers, between us we might just uncover the lost "black arts" of spirit firing.

The easy option is to just stick with the low grade, dirty purple stuff or get a licence and buy industrial meths but there's got to be more to it than that for anyone interested.

There seems to be a lot of conflicting and contradictory information available, we just need to sort it out - keeping safety first of course, and that doesn't just mean at public gatherings.

I'd really like to get my old Mamod running sweet without fitting a gas burner!

[MTA]

To be honest even though IMS burns hotter (but not by much) and leaves less of a carbon deposit the work required to find a local supplier of IMS as well as obtain a license isn't worth the effort.

There isn't a vast amount of difference between IMS and the dyed methylated spirits, plus with IMS I think the minimum quantity from most suppliers is 5 litres which then plus carriage and packing can prove more costly than just driving to your local joinery/chemist/hardware store and buying a 500ml bottle.

Plus as has already been stated you'll need to dye IMS anyway as some shows/exhibitions don't allow the use of IMS/clear methylated spirit because of what can happen if some unthoughtful person doesn't use labelled containers. So by dying it you are basically back to square one as to going down to the local wherever and purchasing ready dyed methylated spirit.

And for the record, I get my methylated spirit from the local tool shop

[METHSSNIFFER]

All I want to know which is better I know someone who uses the clear stuff and recommends it as it dont soot up yer wicks. I think I will stick to the purple stuff unless "narrow minded" can prove otherwise

[Narrow Minded]

So by dying it you are basically back to square one

Not strictly true if you're not adding the same proportion of dye and other additives.

Can't comment on relative costs yet, I'm waiting for a reply from an IMS supplier with a quote, but otherwise thanks for your input.

Cheers, Greg.

[METHSSNIFFER]

Why could it not be bought in, by the show organisers under license and distributed according to its use at a cost to the user. Then it could be put into correct containers and managed properly.

Im not adding further to this but I guess everyones happy using the purple stuff and it seems properly managed anyway!

[TonyW]

The IMS licence application form is here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/16mmngm/files/meths/

My local chemist supplies it to me in 2ltr bottles.

It definitely burns cleaner and hotter.

I put a drop of food colouring in mine.

[METHSSNIFFER]

Talking of food colouring is it right you can add this to your boiler so the level is better seen in the sight gauge

[Narrow Minded]

I've seen that done at Butterley - it threw me cos the water was in an anti freeze container!!

[METHSSNIFFER]

So it was blue then, have you ever seen that substance called Fluoresine that they use to dye test sewers for tracing. Its a powder and the smallest drip of water sends it bright green but I wouldnt suggest putting it in locos!

[Narrow Minded]

I've not seen it but I've heard about it. Doesn't it stain really badly? And the coloured water was red - but you can get a red anti freeze / screenwash.

Just a thought about the purple meths, if it's the dye that causes the soot I've heard of folks filtering red diesel through cat litter to remove the dye - maybe that would work with the meths?

My local chemist supplies it to me in 2ltr bottles.

Is it much more expensive that normal meths?

[METHSSNIFFER]

Ive heard cotton wool does the same thing! Oh yes it does stain badly. With the cotton wool it acts as a filter and absorber! I know car litter is good for putting on ice as good as salt someone says.

Is there ammonia in cat litter !

[Narrow Minded]

There definately is when the cats used it!! (instead of my ballast - just for a change!)

[minimans]

Bit late jumping in here, I cant buy Meth's here in the USA or at least I ain't seen it but Having a workshop here at the race track I have unlimited amounts of Methanol! most of the vintage racers buy it in 55 gallon drums so it wasn't to hard for me to get some, I also use Denatured Alcohol which is used as a fuel for marine stoves maybe the same as white spirit? doesn't seem to heat as well as the Methanol though.

[MTA]

Isn't methylated spirit denatured alcohol?

When I was on the Mamod forum the American members used to refer to it as their fuel of choice on their engines that had methylated spirit burners.

[Narrow Minded]

Yes, meths is denatured alcohol.

I also remember reading somewhere that the USA and UK are "two nations separated by a common language" and Methanol just happens to be one of the words that actually mean something else!?

Oh, and re the cat litter / cotton wool - I've just had a comment from off forum:-
Put it in the freezer! The alcohol doesn't freeze so pour out the liquid to keep and throw away the ice!!

[SillyBilly]

Oh, and re the cat litter / cotton wool - I've just had a comment from off forum:-
Put it in the freezer! The alcohol doesn't freeze so pour out the liquid to keep and throw away the ice!!

That also provides an answer to how cold you can still run a meths loco at then!

[minimans]

Isn't methylated spirit denatured alcohol?

When I was on the Mamod forum the American members used to refer to it as their fuel of choice on their engines that had methylated spirit burners.

Thank you I didn't know that, I see the Aster site say to use denatured alcohol only in there engines, but I still say the methonol seem's to burn hottereven though it's not supposed to?

[Narrow Minded]

I've just run the first comparison tests with Iso Propanol Alcohol (IPA) and Methanol GPC.

I used a 5 wick loco burner and a white mug to check for soot.

The Methanol burns very actively, with an almost invisible short flame, producing almost no soot. - I'll do a back to back test with Methylated Spirit next.
The IPA burns with a "lazy" large yellow flame, producing loads of soot! - I shall use this as a degreaser and cleaner in the workshop.

I'll test the Methanol against Methylated Spirit to measure temperature, time to lift the safety valve and burn time for a full tank.
Any other parameters you can think of?

[cjallenby]

I think you are confused. Methylated spirits is Ethanol with added Methanol to avoid alcohol tax! Methanol its self is highly toxic, volatile and flamable. If you are going to use it watch out because it can ignite easily on contact with hot surfaces.