Ffestiniog Early Brake Van (Sentry Box)

[Tom]

Hi all,

Could anyone please advise me what colour this Van was actually livered in? I've seen pictures of it in Brown, Red Oxide/Bauxite and one in a Dark Purple/Black colour.

Many Thanks

Tom

[laalratty]

Marquis de Carabas might know if he happens to show up on here at some point (might be worth a PM) or your best bet might be waiting to see what livery the Blodge turn out the replica they are building at the moment. I've always assumed it was brown but haven't got a clue.

[Tom]

Marquis de Carabas might know if he happens to show up on here at some point (might be worth a PM) or your best bet might be waiting to see what livery the Blodge turn out the replica they are building at the moment. I've always assumed it was brown but haven't got a clue.

Thanks Laalratty! I'll send a PM later

[METHSSNIFFER]

Yes the replica is going to be purple brown unlike the original which may have been bauxite/ red oxice along with other timber stock. This will match the beer wagon.
My builds have been in red oxide but the latest model is going with purple brown. The customers choice not mine.

[Marquis DeCarabas]

Which would you prefer 1860s, 1870s or 2010s condition?

[Tom]

Which would you prefer 1860s, 1870s or 2010s condition?

all three please! I'm not really modelling a certain era

Thanks also Mr Meths

[Andrew]

Which would you prefer 1860s, 1870s or 2010s condition?

all three please! I'm not really modelling a certain era

In that case maybe you should go for bright yellow, to match your MPV?!! Or perhaps not...

[Tom]

Which would you prefer 1860s, 1870s or 2010s condition?

all three please! I'm not really modelling a certain era

In that case maybe you should go for bright yellow, to match your MPV?!! Or perhaps not...

Haha I don't think it would look any good in NR Bodyside Yellow, that's strictly for Departmental Stock only

[Marquis DeCarabas]

Hmm. OK - will try and write something up later on today about the early stuff. AIUI the rebuild is going to be all-over purple brown, but I'd be very surprised if it were to be lined out.

[Tom]

Hmm. OK - will try and write something up later on today about the early stuff. AIUI the rebuild is going to be all-over purple brown, but I'd be very surprised if it were to be lined out.

Ok Thanks, I think its just going to be a case of Brown or Bauxite/Red Oxide?

[Marquis DeCarabas]

Bit more complex than that. I'm currently in a belfry so not able to access photos.

[Marquis DeCarabas]

You're in luck - I remembered that I wrote something up in October (I've got nearly every single email I've ever sent since c.1993 somewhere) - so here's the text: sorry for the delay.

On 9 October 2013 01:31, Marquis DeCarabas wrote:
> On 8 October 2013 19:27, Dan wrote:
>> Hi Sean,
>>
>> Do you mean one of these fellows:
>> http://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Van_6? Or is it one of the "Sentry
>> Box" vans: http://trains.laurell.nu/kits/jurassic16-01.html?
>>
>> If the former, then I think the brick/oxide red shown on the
>> Festipedia page is about right. I'm not sure what the livery of the
>> Sentry Box vans was - perhaps his excellency the MdeC can help with
>> that. The folks on the 7/8ths. forum suggest a " Lancashire &
>> Yorkshire Purple-Brown" which apparently is the Boston Lodge approved
>> colour: http://www.7-8ths.info/index.php?topic=16684414.0
>>
>
> <escapes from Grimpen Mire>
>
> Pending some insight into the decision processes at the Lodge apart
> from "it's going to be p-b because the CRV is p-b" the first thing to
> say is that whatever colour it is, it wasn't glossy as portrayed in
> the 7/8th picture.
>
> Let's look at the available pictures online:
> http://www.festipedia.org.uk/w/images/e/e3/Wp1871.jpg
> http://www.festipedia.org.uk/w/images/3 ... er1871.jpg
> http://www.festipedia.org.uk/w/images/4 ... th5118.jpg
>
> Of these, it is quite clear to me that it was a flat finish - the LW
> picture isn't brilliant, but the leading Ashbury is in the
> purple-brown.
>
> There are a couple of other pictures around, one especially from
> Clogwyn Daniel, looking down over the later route. This gives a very
> good shot of the sentry end and it is in full sun. This picture is
> quite interesting, as there is a very clear colour differential
> between the glazed end of the sentry box and the inset end of the
> balcony. The metal stanchions of the verandah rail are clearly visible
> against the sentry box and these are almost certainly black. The inset
> end of the the van is a much darker grey than the sentry box. This is
> hinted at in the picture of Eric and the Princess at Duffws - you
> can't make the decision based on the line of the sun because it may
> just be in shadow - however, some renditions of this picture do give a
> whiff of the riser for the step in the balcony being visible to the
> immediate right of the Engine side verandah stanchion - they /may/ be
> a .jpg artifact.
>
> With that in mind, have a shuftie at these two pictures (use the
> magnifying glass too):
>
> Below Clogwyn Daniel:
> http://tinyurl.com/oklgbm6
>
> Princess at Duffws, 1871
> http://tinyurl.com/pk63vbo
> (use the zoom on this one, fer sure)
>
> There is one more picture, taken at Creuau which doesn't give a lot more.
>
> Now, this is all a bit subjective, but by comparision within the
> pictures, I would say that at Clogwyn Daniel the sun is shining
> directly across the end of the vehicle and the inset end most closely
> matches the bottom curved ends of the England. In the Duffws picture
> you can make out the bar that closes off the verandah and when you
> zoom you can just distinguish a lighter patch on the top of the most
> Engine-ward [1] panel, likewise you can see a similar lightening on
> the end of the first class bugbox.
>
> I suggest that both these lightenings on the ends are actually
> reflections. That isn't too hard to believe, especially in the case of
> the first class bugbox which we know was a glossy purple lake with
> cream fake ventilators which is really clear in the picture of Welsh
> Po at Port. Note in that picture
> (http://www.festipedia.org.uk/w/images/e/e3/Wp1871.jpg) you can just
> about make out a horizontal on the guards van running from Engine to
> Clock [1] side: I think that is the reflection in the Bottom Engine
> panel on the first class bugbox.
>
> With me so far? OK, let's go back to the van, let's look at the top of
> the Bottom Engine panel in zoom. I''m pretty sure that you can make
> out the shoulder of the guard reflected there. So that inset bit is
> almost certainly glossy. What of the rest of the van - well, if push
> came to shove, I'd say that the van was flat. All the other
> contemporary pictures give some hints of there being a 'depth' to the
> colour on the other vehicles - I think that comes from varnish. I
> can't see the same sort of 'depth', IYGWIM, on the van sides and the
> sentry box.
>
> Bearing in mind that these vehicles were intended to be the leading
> vehicle of down trains, I'm tempted to suggest that the ends were red
> - I've go no basis for that other than a hunch. The sides look to be
> lighter than the ends and lighter than the lake of the first class
> bugbox - I wonder if somewhere in between the proposed lake and the
> TR's carriage brown would be suitable, something close to BS381c 411.
> It might just be me but the lake looks too dark on the model, and I
> can't consciously remember reading that the sentry box was added after
> building, though that might explain the difference in colour.
>
> Remember that the vans were (I think) locally constructed using
> ironwork from Brown Marshalls, so the paint finish wouldn't
> necessarily be anything special. I think it is darker than the Type 1
> and Type 2 Quarrymens.
>
> I think you can make out that where you can see lettering, the Duffws
> picture is No 1 van and the Port picture is No 2 van. Which reminds me
> - I've now got a scale drawing of the original passenger layout at
> Port (pre-1879) and the angles are such that comparing it to the Welsh
> Po picture the dark end is not entirely due to the shadow - it is
> possible that the Top end was also painted differently to the sides. I
> suspect that below the brace that runs the width of the van was black
> and above that was body colour.
>
> [1] I'm guessing you know about Top, Bottom [Strange, Charm]; Clock
> and Engine and their significance to the Noggerbahn?

[METHSSNIFFER]

I don't think the ends would have been red as the guard was permanently housed in the sentry box and on the balcony. Unlike the replica where a door into the van from the balcony is in progress for comfort.
The van would of not matched the bug boxes for reason it wasn't a passenger carrying vehicle. It is a lighter shade as the photos suggest to the bug box.

I believe there were two sentry box vans as you say with nos. 1 and 2. One having a letter box look out the other without.

[Marquis DeCarabas]

I don't think the ends would have been red as the guard was permanently housed in the sentry box and on the balcony.

There is a peculiar reference in the Archives - the salient point is that the ends were gloss, and a different colour to the sentry box - as suggested by the Clogwyn Daniel picture.

It was also the fashion of the 1860s to have red ends on braked vehicles.

I believe there were two sentry box vans as you say with nos. 1 and 2. One having a letter box look out the other without.

I think both eventually got the look-outs, but exactly when I'm not yet sure.

[Tom]

Thanks Marquis that's much appreciated!

[METHSSNIFFER]

According to Boyd the sign LAST VEHICLE white lettering on red background was used on these earlier vans is that true.

[Marquis DeCarabas]

According to Boyd the sign LAST VEHICLE white lettering on red background was used on these earlier vans is that true.

Unlikely - what's the Boyd page ref. please? I'm pretty sure at this time of the morning that Boyd was referring to the converted quarrymen vans and/or slate wagons.

There were two series of LV boards, one wooden and one metal and they were numbered I have a note of the numbers somewhere - I think one of the ones I have seen is something like 11 or 12.