Coal fired 16mm gauge locos

[bessytractor]

may I ask why the Sabre locos all required new boilers?  I highly doubt the boilers were themselves dangerous (I can say this with confidence as I own three boilers by the same boiler maker), were they just badly designed?

Incidentally you have actually seen one of these boilers Tag, the funny coal fired vertical driven with bits of Meccano at Merstham last year.

[GardenRail]

may I ask why the Sabre locos all required new boilers?  I highly doubt the boilers were themselves dangerous (I can say this with confidence as I own three boilers by the same boiler maker), were they just badly designed?

Incidentally you have actually seen one of these boilers Tag, the funny coal fired vertical driven with bits of Meccano at Merstham last year.

I have seen quite a few of these boilers and have a couple of points to make. First of all the boiler design was not undertaken by the boilermaker – Matt made actually what he was asked to make. Initially they were a straight copy of the boiler fitted to another manufacturer's locomotive and, after a solicitor's letter to Sabre, the design was changed – hence the two small tubes at the bottom of the boiler (presumably to keep the same cross-sectional area without the bother of designing one's own).

Steve Jackson has an Annette with one of these boilers and it does indeed make steam. The completed locomotive now functions well after many modifications and improvements including a 'rosebud' grate to replace the original Sabre design that blocked up as the fire burnt and eventually burnt away.

Secondly these properly built boilers were not the only ones used by Sabre. One build of boiler (probably obtained from elsewhere when the proprietor could not afford to pay his boilermaker who, once he realised what was happening, demanded cash on delivery) was massively over engineered in terms of thickness of metal including the tubes. This meant that copper was being heated rather than water. This boiler (and I don't know how many there were) did not work and the loco concerned was letter fitted with a DJB boiler. The Roundhouse chassis was also stripped down and put back together properly. The bodyshell was re built and repainted – this time using etch primer to stop the paint flaking off.

Matt's boilers are perfectly safe (and legal) of course – and, as you have stated, are used elsewhere. With regard to Sabre however, people have lost very significant sums of money over Sabre Steam – including the manufacturer of the chassis', the people who paid for a locomotive that was not 'fit for the purpose for which it was sold', and those who paid for a locomotive only to have it sold to the current eBay seller and so lost ALL their money.

The overall effect of what became a cowboy builder after the death of the original proprietor, has been to cause misery to many purchasers and severe financial loss to individuals and businesses.

Anyone who wants to buy something with this sort of provenance – go ahead – I don't care – but please don't whinge afterwards and, I repeat, there are several builders of coal-fired locomotives with a record of good business ethics and a track record of providing locomotives that are professionally finished and work well.

[benchmark]

UPDATE:

The Seller and i have exchanged quite a few mails and quite recently on my request , he sent me a couple of videos where he ran his locomotive on tracks in a workshop.

He also informed me that one of the models ran at 25-30 PSI while the other ran as low as 12 PSI , though he also pointed out that no 2 locomotives he had made have been exactly the same as we all know too well.

Anyway, i will very likely be seeing one of his locomotives this Saturday for a close inspection and i will keep you guys updated.

From the little correspondence we have had together, he seems like a nice bloke and it may be work encouraging him in his efforts .

[david bailey]

I would be inerested to know how he maintains the fire when only running at so low pressures, it needs a good blast up the chimney to maintain the fire, perhaps he runs with the Blower on all of the time? I run all of my coal fired engines at 60 PSI as this is the more economical pressure, it maintains a good fire and uses les water.
David Bailey

[benchmark]

 I run all of my coal fired engines at 60 PSI as this is the more economical pressure, it maintains a good fire and uses les water.
David Bailey

Does higher pressure not mean faster dilapidation of fuel and usage of water? i should assume that you will need more coal fuel to keep the boilers so hot to attain higher pressures and if the boiler is delivering 60PSI or steam always more steam exits the boiler ?? or have i got it wrong

[GardenRail]

 I run all of my coal fired engines at 60 PSI as this is the more economical pressure, it maintains a good fire and uses les water.
David Bailey

Does higher pressure not mean faster dilapidation of fuel and usage of water? i should assume that  you will need more coal fuel to  keep the boilers so hot to attain higher pressures and if the boiler is delivering 60PSI or steam always more steam exits the boiler ?? or have i got it wrong  :|

Try it in this scale and see, is the short answer...

[Busted Bricks]

If running at the higher pressure then you don't need the blower on as David mentions. Effectively you are making better use of the steam generated.

[GardenRail]

Technical Question.....

Is any damage likely to Roundhouse cylinders possible when running at 60psi when they run at a max of 40psi on Roundhouse Models ?

No. Roundhouse Engineering is happy to have business relationships with the well-known businesses such as ELR, DJB, John Shawe et al, in terms of selling their cylinders and running gear for coal firing. There have been Roundhouse based coal-fired models running for many years and this combination works very well indeed. There are others who wish to build and they can of course purchase parts retail – and what they do with these is up to them

The 40psi pressure of gas fired locomotives is all that is needed to do the job. On a coal-fired locomotive having a heat source without a regulator other than firedoor, damper and blower, one needs the extra flexibility of 60psi. Dropping below 40 is something to watch out for because it is indicative of your fire's health. Once you drop below 20psi then difficulty might well be experienced in rescuing the fire. As David (a respected builder of coal fired locos in this scale for many years) said, 60psi is his optimum on this size loco and I usually run between 50 & 60. It should be remembered that we cannot scale nature. Everything happens so much more quickly in this very small scale. A tiny fire like this can soon stop being effective if conditions are not right for it and a tiny boiler with only 20psi on the gauge is not really in running condition – putting the blower on is likely to remove more steam than the struggling fire can make. At this stage one should be stopped for a 'blow up' with electric fan to hand to conserve steam.

Having said that, once on gets used to firing, then it can be very satisfying and to me, more relaxing than running gas. The reason I say this is that there is a finite quantity of fuel in a gas fired locomotive. The coal fired locomotive can run for around an hour without recharging the lubricator and indeed, will simmer happily in a siding for that time as well. One can recharge the oil easily and in this way just keep running as long as one wants (in my case about an hour is fine).
There is certainly more maintenance and cleaning with coal – but then this is something I enjoy...

[benchmark]

I was able to get the manufacturer today on the telephone and we spoke at length, i asked him a series of things that have been raised in this thread and he quite frankly answered them and i must say that he seemed genuine.

Question: First i asked him why his product does not feature at shows and why he said people looked sceptically at it?
His answer: He took time to politely explain the Sabre company story, telling me that He actually bought a business whose former owner had not been straight forward with his dealings, he confessed that may people had lost money with the former owner , not to mention his lack of dedication to the business hence explaining the current negativity attached to his product based on its roots.
My opinion: I do sympathize with the fact that people got shafted under the former management but i also understand that it is no too fair to make a new owner suffer for this. We should be encouraging industrious efforts that contribute to our hobby.


Question. Then i asked him about the lower pressures he stated his engines run at ?
His answer: he told me that he was stating the minimum boiler pressures that his locomotives can run but that sustainable live steam runs like he showed me in the videos require at least 45PSI to keep the loco self sufficient.
My opinion: i did go back and read his email again where i though he stated this and i find that i was the one who misunderstood him. My bad.

Question: What guarantee do you offer for your locomotives?
Answer: he stated that he always offers the option of personal collection so that buyers can see their locomotives run in the flesh and even then he listens to all critique with the hope that he can better his design and product in general.
He was honest enough to tell me that the water refill pumps in his design are not too effective when pumping against high boiler pressures and that he has struggled to tweak the design for the past few months with little results, but that he hopes he is slowly getting there. He also told me that the first few locomotives got the critique that the sight glasses were too low and this has since been changed on all subsequent models.
I have even been offered to look at his current designs and i can dictate any alterations i would like effected in the one i order. Plus a refund if the item differs from what was agreed.
My opinion; As regards the pump, i don't know how important thy are to coal fired locos but i can honestly tell you that judging from the boiler refill pumps on my steam boats, they are just grossly inadequate and i hardly depend on them to sustain the steam production. I sail in and refill with a trusty 'Goodall' valve which is faster and no nonsense.


I feel i will give him the benefit of doubt, he seems like a nice fellow, apparently over 60 years or age and a former engineer so maybe he actually does know what he is talking about. He has only sold 12 locos to date since he started , i think its worth a try and you guys can have me as your guinea pig or test rat . I will be placing an order for one of them , i pray i do not regret it and end up with an anchor .

I will be inspecting a couple of his locomotives during my trip this weekend and i will let you guys know  what i think of it.

[dougrail]

Good luck with it, Benchmark. Hopefully the new chap can turn things around.

[GardenRail]

I was able to get the manufacturer today on the telephone and we spoke at length, i asked him a series of things that have been raised in this thread and he quite frankly answered them and i must say that he seemed genuine.

Question: First i asked him why his product does not feature at shows and why he said people looked sceptically at it?
His answer: He took time to politely explain the Sabre company story, telling me that He actually bought a business whose former owner had not been straight forward with his dealings, he confessed that may people had lost money with the former owner , not to mention his lack of dedication to the business hence explaining the current negativity attached to his product based on its roots.
My opinion: I do sympathize with the fact that people got shafted under the former management but i also understand that it is no too fair to make a new owner suffer for this. We should be encouraging industrious efforts that contribute to our hobby.


Question. Then i asked him about the lower pressures he stated his engines run at ?
His answer: he told me that he was stating the minimum boiler pressures that his locomotives can run but that sustainable live steam runs like he showed me in the videos require at least 45PSI to keep the loco self sufficient.
My opinion: i did go back and read his  email again where i though he stated this and i find that i was the one who misunderstood him. My bad.

Question: What guarantee do you offer for your locomotives?
Answer: he stated that he always offers the option of personal collection so that buyers can see their locomotives run in the flesh and even then he listens to all critique with the hope that he can better his design and product in general.
He was honest enough to tell me that the water refill pumps in his design are not too effective when pumping against high boiler pressures and that he has struggled to tweak the design for the past few months with little results, but that he hopes he is slowly getting there. He also told me that the first few locomotives got the critique that the sight glasses were too low and this has since been changed on all subsequent models.
I have even been offered to look at his current designs and i can dictate any alterations i would like effected in the one i order. Plus a refund if the item differs from what was agreed.
My opinion; As regards the pump, i don't know how important thy are to coal fired locos but i can honestly tell you that judging from the boiler refill pumps on my steam boats, they are just grossly inadequate and i hardly depend on them to sustain the steam production. I sail in and refill with a trusty 'Goodall' valve which is faster and no nonsense.


I feel i will give him the benefit of doubt, he seems like a nice fellow, apparently over 60 years or age and a former engineer so maybe he actually does know what he is talking about. He has only sold 12 locos to date since he started , i think its worth a try and you guys can have me as your guinea pig or test rat . I will be placing an order for one of them , i pray i do not regret it and end up with an anchor .

I will be inspecting a couple of his locomotives during my trip this weekend and i will let you guys know  what i think of it.

Your choice based on a chat with this e-bay supplier. I can only strongly suggest to others however, that they ask the advice of the many people in the UK that have owned and used coal fired 16mm scale locomotives (and of course to actually see these various manufacturers' locomotives running) before spending money with anyone at all.

Interesting that there have been 12 of these locomotives sold. I take it that this figure has not been verified but would be good to speak to a happy customer. Strange that one has not as yet come out of the woodwork on any of the forums or lists. 12 is quite a lot in this game.

A quick 'director check' on line makes interesting reading...

[GardenRail]

Met 'Benchmark' AKA Kenneth at Exeter Show today – a very nice guy! We have worked out a way forward on this to establish how well these locomotives work

[benchmark]

A splendid day that ended too soon.
Tag is a fantastic gentleman, we soon got talking and i felt as though i knew him for years. I will be in the UK again for another model railway show,thats for sure.

[taliesin]

Hi Benchmark, have you seen the engines? and have you bought one? cheers Rob

[benchmark]

Hi Benchmark, have you seen the engines? and have you bought one? cheers Rob

I have seen two of them he brought to me at the event to inspect as arranged but i did not test steam them. I have requested certain modifications and suggestions which should be effected after which i will place my order for a full review.

I will keep you guys updated.

[bessytractor]

may I ask why the Sabre locos all required new boilers?  I highly doubt the boilers were themselves dangerous (I can say this with confidence as I own three boilers by the same boiler maker), were they just badly designed?

Incidentally you have actually seen one of these boilers Tag, the funny coal fired vertical driven with bits of Meccano at Merstham last year.

I have seen quite a few of these boilers and have a couple of points to make. First of all the boiler design was not undertaken by the boilermaker – Matt made actually what he was asked to make. Initially they were a straight copy of the boiler fitted to another manufacturer's locomotive and, after a solicitor's letter to Sabre, the design was changed – hence the two small tubes at the bottom of the boiler (presumably to keep the same cross-sectional area without the bother of designing one's own).

Steve Jackson has an Annette with one of these boilers and it does indeed make steam. The completed locomotive now functions well after many modifications and improvements including a 'rosebud' grate to replace the original Sabre design that blocked up as the fire burnt and eventually burnt away.

Secondly these properly built boilers were not the only ones used by Sabre. One build of boiler (probably obtained from elsewhere when the proprietor could not afford to pay his boilermaker who, once he realised what was happening, demanded cash on delivery) was massively over engineered in terms of thickness of metal including the tubes. This meant that copper was being heated rather than water. This boiler (and I don't know how many there were) did not work and the loco concerned was letter fitted with a DJB boiler. The Roundhouse chassis was also stripped down and put back together properly. The bodyshell was re built and repainted – this time using etch primer to stop the paint flaking off.

Matt's boilers are perfectly safe (and legal) of course – and, as you have stated, are used elsewhere. With regard to Sabre however, people have lost very significant sums of money over Sabre Steam – including the manufacturer of the chassis', the people who paid for a locomotive that was not 'fit for the purpose for which it was sold', and those who paid for a locomotive only to have it sold to the current eBay seller and so lost ALL their money.

The overall effect of what became a cowboy builder after the death of the original proprietor, has been to cause misery to many purchasers and severe financial loss to individuals and businesses.

Anyone who wants to buy something with this sort of provenance – go ahead – I don't care – but please don't whinge afterwards and, I repeat, there are several builders of coal-fired locomotives with a  record of good business ethics and a track record of providing locomotives that are professionally finished and work well.

thanks for clearing that up. With regard to the 60psi working pressure thing, my vertical runs at a WP of 40 psi but being vertically boilered doesn't suffer as much from running at a lower pressure, however if you let it get out of hand thats it, your finished, so you certainly do have a very narrow tolerance to work to (as anyone who saw me running up and down at Merstham can tell you, loco has since been redraughted and I'm confident of better steaming).