Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

[siclick33]

A little while ago I visited the Georgia state railroad museum in Atlanta, just to pass some time, and they had an incredible 'model' locomotive on display. When I got home, I searched the internet for model locomotive kits and came up with a few results; some were huge (and mega expensive) and some were toys.

I found a couple of manufacturers who sold kits that were in the mid-range. i.e. models that weren't toys but also didn't look too overwhelming for a newcomer. I sent out a few emails and the reply from Roundhouse stood out, both due to the speed of reply and the fact that they took the time to fully answer all of my questions.

I noticed that they work on a pre-order list for factory-built locomotives, but I like the engineering side so enquired about a kit. I was pleasantly surprised to hear that they had the kits in stock, ready to ship (so if you're happy to build from a kit and don't want to wait, you can get a kit a lot quicker!).

I paid for my kit last Wednesday, it shipped on Thursday, and it is due to be delivered to me in the USA tomorrow, which is significantly quicker than I thought it would be.

I thought it might be fun to post a log of the build here. I'm sure there are other builds on here and other places on the internet, but I am hoping that this could be used as a 'guide' for someone else starting from scratch.

I already have a couple of questions, but I will wait until after the kit has arrived and I have posted pictures of the unstarted kit here.

[philipy]

Hi and welcome.

Build project write ups are always welcome, so please document your build with plenty of pictures.
Feel free to ask as many questions as you like, somebody will almost certainly be able to answer. As you suggest, there have been a number of previous builds, just put "Billy" into the search box at the top right hand corner of the screen.

[siclick33]

The first hurdle was to work out what to order. After a couple of quick emails to Roundhouse I discovered the following:

The boiler kit comes with the manual regulator, but I am going to use RC. There is a different RC regulator in the RC fittings kit. If you don't need the manual regulator, then you can ask Roundhouse to remove it from the kit and save a little bit of money.

I also had a little confusion over which tools I needed. I originally ordered the BA spanner set but, apparently, the kit comes with spanners so I was able to take those off the order.

My complete order consists of:

Billy chassis, boiler, body and RC kits.
Unpainted coal bunker add-on.
Unpainted cylinder covers.
Unpainted buffer beam overlays.
Combination lever and crosshead set.
Roundhouse works plates.
Multi-Tool.
Gas filler adapter.
Steam oil.

As this thread progresses, I will update this list with all of the parts (with sources) that I add. I already have plans to include parts from SwiftSixteen and, maybe, Locoworks. I will also show the contents and fitment of some of the parts in the list above, that I couldn't find information about easily on the internet. Finally, I will mention any parts that I bought that I didn't need, or anything that I do need that I missed.

[siclick33]

It has arrived

Photos of what I received, and the contents of the chassis kit, which is where I will start. From payment to arriving with me in the US was 5 days!

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[siclick33]

One of the first things I wanted to do was to check the buffer mounting style, as I'm considering a SwiftSixteen coupling and I wasn't sure which one would fit.

It looks like this is the one to go for (although I'm sure the others would work too) https://www.swiftsixteen.co.uk/product- ... e-coupling

That said, it looks easy to add this at a later date and the Roundhouse buffers look fine.

I'm also considering switching some of the M3 chassis/buffer beam bolts to ones with hex heads, so I measured up the brass slotted ones in the kit and they have about 5mm long threads. It looks like Roundhouse sell these as an option (and I believe that the factory locos may now have them on the buffer beams as standard), otherwise I will look for some online.

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[Lonsdaler]

eBay is a good source for all types and dimensions of bolts. That delivery time is quite remarkable. I ordered a small item through eBay from the US to UK, with tracking - 3 days transit, 5 days at UK customs, and then 2 days to my door

[siclick33]

There's a slight delay whilst I am waiting for my spraying equipment to turn up.

I've ordered some Scalecoat 1 paint and I must say I'm a little disappointed with Minuteman. It has been 2 days and all I have had is the automated confirmation of my order. I understand that there might be a delay, but it would be nice to have some indication of how long that delay will be.

In the meantime, I've been looking for some replacement bolts. I was considering button head hex bolts but previous experience with those has made me concerned about the heads stripping. I've also seen some little scale(ish) bolts (link below) which look quite cool, but I'm worried about the heads stripping on those as well.

https://store.rc4wd.com/RC4WD-Miniature ... _2308.html

Previous experience has also shown that some of the chinese bolts appear to be made of cheese and shear very easily. I might try the ones in the link below; they look very expensive but it's actually a lot cheaper to buy 200 rather than 100, so I may have a few spares

https://www.accu.co.uk/full-thread-hexa ... M3-6-A4-BL

[siclick33]

I chased up Minuteman and got an automated reply saying that they are closed until 19th Apr for family vacation. I have no issue with that, but it would have been nice to mention it on the website, or on the automated order response. The wait for paint continues.

I've also had to chase up Loco-Boxes, as they initially responded to my query about rolling roads, but then don't appear to have processed my order.

Whilst I am waiting, I have opened the body kit box. I am quite impressed that most of the difficult bending of the main part of the body has already been done by Roundhouse. It also has some rivet detail. I read somewhere that the dummy roof vent wasn't included in Billy kits but mine has it, however, it is designed to be stuck on with double-sided tape so I might look at something else instead.

I had my first go at bending the body floor and it was a disaster. I don't have all of my workshop tools here so was trying to make do with what I had. I thought it might be ruined but a few bashes with a hammer appears to have straightened it all out. The 'steps' are extremely weak and bendy though; I'm going to add some step detail, not just for cosmetics but also because I know I will accidentally snap them off pretty quickly if I leave them as they are.

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[siclick33]

Next is the RC kit. There are some things in here that I probably won't use (e.g. the plastic battery box). It's a tiny bit pricey (£46.50 incl UK Vat at the time of writing) but removing the manual regulator from the kit took £28.65 off that, so it works out quite reasonable.


One of the first disappointments was the Works Plates. I had intended to paint them but the lettering is engraved, so I don't know how I can do that. They were about £3 each so I could probably have got something better elsewhere for similar money. I might still use them but I will probably need to shoot some clear over them first (which I haven't ordered). The only other slight disappointment, when spending that much money for a kit, was the fact that they didn't throw in a catalogue. I think a catalogue and the Works Plates should have been included, however, I will buy a catalogue when I place my next order.

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[siclick33]

The airbrush equipment has arrived.

As I am only temporarily living in the US, I am trying to minimise the amount of electrical equipment I buy (as a lot of it doesn't work in the UK). I considered using cans of propellant for the airbrush but then came across this on ebay. It looks similar to others that are available from the big brand names but was only $70 (which is less than the cost of about 6 cans of propellant) so I took a chance on it. It also comes with an airbrush (which I am not going to use but will be handy for blowing off dust/drying etc). I'm really impressed with it for the price.

I spent a bit more on the airbrush. In the end I went with the Iwata Neo TRN2 trigger brush. As expected with Iwata, it feels pretty good quality.

I still don't have any idea when the paint will arrive yet though I might try some soldering this afternoon instead.

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[siclick33]

My first attempts at bending the metal parts proved a bit difficult. I looked at the tiny bends in the back of the body and wasn't sure how I would make a neat job of these. I looked around for options and found this hand seamer at Harbor Freight for $11. This is a bit big but it made light work of the bends and something like this makes the bodywork much easier.

I also had my first go at soldering, using Stay-Brite solder and a small butane/propane soldering torch. I'm quite happy with the result.

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[siclick33]

Optional coal bunker folder and soldered. Not my best effort but it will do.

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[siclick33]

Time for a question as I need some help please.

I have ordered the Scalecoat 1 paints. Searching the internet for ideas on surface prep suggests that there wasn't a Scalecoat primer, but there is now and I have bought some. However, it doesn't specifically mention that it is an 'etch' primer so I bought a spray can from Walmart today.

I have also bought a load of stuff shown in the photo below. How would you prep the brass before painting with Scalecoat 1? Would you use the etch primer can, Scalecoat primer, or no primer? Would you do the vinegar soak, clean with Isopropyl alcohol or Comet (and is that the correct Comet that I have bought)?

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[siclick33]

Body soldered and initial clean-up complete.

Not perfect but I'm quite happy with it.

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[GTB]

I have also bought a load of stuff shown in the photo below. How would you prep the brass before painting with Scalecoat 1? Would you use the etch primer can, Scalecoat primer, or no primer? Would you do the vinegar soak, clean with Isopropyl alcohol or Comet (and is that the correct Comet that I have bought)?

No idea what 'Comet' is, but the label says bleach, which isn't what you need.

I haven't used Scalecoat for at least 4 decades, so no idea what it is like these days. Back then it was a lacquer similar to Floquil........

Anyway, my procedure for painting brass parts is as follows :-

- As soon as parts are soldered, I give them a good scrub with an old toothbrush and Ajax Creme Cleanser. The brand doesn't matter, but creme cleanser has a mild abrasive, as well as a detergent in the formula, so it neutralises flux residues and also cleans off oils, greases and surface corrosion. Parts built up from many parts should be cleaned after each soldering session. If you don't get all the flux removed, it will continue to cause corrosion under the paint.

- I use a local brand of etch primer, black where the loco will be all over black, grey on parts where it will be green, red, etc.

- I use Revell enamels and a local brand of spraying enamel for the top coat on my models. Roundhouse told me they use two pack acrylic lacquer (car paint) on their factory built models.

The water based acrylic paints sold in hobby shops are not heat resistant and using them on locos will only lead to tears and bad language. In the case of Scalecoat1, I'd suggest doing some tests before committing to it on a live steam model.

You need a paint that won't soften, or change colour, when exposed to heat. The smokebox of a gas fired loco can get up to temperatures over 150degC, the boiler temp at 40psi is 140degC. and cylinders will be over 100degC. Some people use 'pot belly black' stove paint on smokeboxes, although I find it a bit shiny and far too black for my taste. A good quality enamel paint can usually tolerate the temperatures found in our size of live steam locos. The local speed shops that cater to the petrol heads have heat resistant paint for brakes, motors, etc., but the colour range is generally limited.


On a related note, I have used cheap asian compressors, but found they run hot and wear out quickly when painting large scale models. I now use a small diaphragm type workshop compressor, rated at 1hp and 40lpm free air flow, which actually cost less than the hobby grade compressor it replaced.

Graeme

[siclick33]

Thanks for your reply.

Comet is like Ajax. Ajax only appears to be available in the US in powder form and although you can get Comet in cream form, it still contains bleach. I have found a 3M creme cleanser but I have to have it shipped to me, so it works out quite expensive.


On the subject of heat and paint..... I assume that I don't paint the boiler itself? If not, does it need any form of corrosion protection? I assume I paint both sides of the boiler wrapper?

And the smoke box, do I paint the inside as well, or just the outside?

All I know about Scalecoat is that it is a solvent-based enamel. I've read that other people have used it so I hope it's ok. I'm still not sure if it will be ok on the smoke box or if I need to buy specific heat-resistant paint.


I'm thinking of trying the following for the brass parts:

1) Clean with a cream cleaner (with a toothbrush).
2) Rinse.
3) Vinegar bath.
4) Prime with the Rustoleum etch primer.
5) Top coat with Scalecoat 1.

I'll probably try some pieces first that are easy to replace in case it goes wrong (maybe the buffer beam overlays).

[GTB]

Thanks for your reply.

Comet is like Ajax. Ajax only appears to be available in the US in powder form and although you can get Comet in cream form, it still contains bleach. I have found a 3M creme cleanser but I have to have it shipped to me, so it works out quite expensive.


On the subject of heat and paint..... I assume that I don't paint the boiler itself? If not, does it need any form of corrosion protection? I assume I paint both sides of the boiler wrapper?

And the smoke box, do I paint the inside as well, or just the outside?

All I know about Scalecoat is that it is a solvent-based enamel. I've read that other people have used it so I hope it's ok. I'm still not sure if it will be ok on the smoke box or if I need to buy specific heat-resistant paint.


I'm thinking of trying the following for the brass parts:

1) Clean with a cream cleaner (with a toothbrush).
2) Rinse.
3) Vinegar bath.
4) Prime with the Rustoleum etch primer.
5) Top coat with Scalecoat 1.

I'll probably try some pieces first that are easy to replace in case it goes wrong (maybe the buffer beam overlays).

As an industrial chemist I'm very wary of using anything with bleach in it to clean metal, due to the chance of residual chloride initiating corrosion. I'd use Ajax powder (or any equivalent brand without bleach)...........

You are using an etch primer, so a vinegar wash won't make the primer work any better. Not all etch primers are created equal, so check that the one you are using is suitable for both brass and steel.

The boiler projects into the cab, so it is worth painting at least that part of it. Just remember to cover all the bushes to keep overspray from getting into the threads. I paint the upper part of my cab interiors cream and do the same to the backhead, any etch primer that works on brass should work on copper as well.

No point in painting the inside of the smokebox, it's a bronze casting and will be soaked in steam oil after the first run, so it won't corrode.

I paint the inside of the cleading as well as the outside. It's not strictly necessary, but it prevents any corrosion if water gets trapped in there while filling the boiler, or from condensate dribbling down from the safety valve.

Test pieces are always a good idea when painting with something you aren't sure about. A metal part can easily have the paint stripped off without damage to try something else, if the first attempt doesn't work out. It doesn't have to be a model part, but best to be the metal in question when testing for paint adhesion.

Graeme

[siclick33]

Thanks again, that is extremely helpful.


First problem has come, with the roof.

The instructions say that the roof 'hinges' are slotted to be able to adjust the roof and to 'tighten when correctly positioned'. I put it all together and there was no way that this was going to work. After a few adjustments I realised that the bottom of the hinges was hitting the flanges on the inside of the body, so I bent the hinges to allow the roof to drop some more. However, now the roof wouldn't open without the nuts that hold the canopy hinges on, hitting the front part of the body (where the windows are) when you open it. I ended up grinding away some of the metal from the front of the cab, and now it all works. There is no way that these retaining bolts can be 'tightened'' and I subsequently found another part of the instructions that mentions that they need to be loose If you don't go through all of this hassle then the roof sits quite high, as shown on a photo I found on the internet.

If I was to do this again, I would try to leave the end of the hinges flat, and grind away some of the flange from the inside so the roof can sit lower. I might grind these flanges away a bit anyway, so that I can replace the roof strap later.

The other concern I had was that the battery box looks odd, when installed, when viewing from the rear. I thought I had made a mistake but, looking at the Roundhouse factory photos, this is correct.

I'm sure there is room for improvement on the kit here; at the very least the instructions are a bit of a mess.

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[Keith S]

I certainly hope this doesn't sound rude, but I think you need to perhaps slow down a little and think things through a little more carefully before doing things you can't undo, such as grinding down the spectacle plate of your cab. There is no way this should have been necessary. I built this kit, as did many others present, and I found the instructions to be excellent: much better than any other kit I have ever built. Furthermore, I found every part fit perfectly. This is Roundhouse's well-deserved reputation.

The holes in the cab roof bracket/hinge are oval because the roof is meant to be lifted before hinging forward. This would have allowed the nuts on the bottom of the cab to clear the front. The second picture, of the red "Billy" shows the roof pulled up prior to being tilted forward. It should be possible to push it down so it sits correctly. It's not meant to hinge forward without being pulled up first.

Anyway: On the subject of paint: I second the recommendation you use enamel. There used to be some very good instructions on easy painting by Chris Bird on his "Summerland" website, but he seems to have deleted a lot of his older stuff.

The boiler jacket will get very hot while your engine is running, and this will "bake" the paint and give it a different sheen and colour to the parts that stay cool. Therefore it works really well if you spray the parts, and then immediately put them in a low oven. If you're in America, whatever the lowest temperature your oven goes to, like 180F. for 20 minutes or so. This drives off the solvent, and causes the paint to become hard and has the added benefit of being able to be handled as soon as it cools off.

I just used spray cans to paint mine, using enamel, before I knew this little trick, and I noticed the paint looked rubbery and excessively shiny when new. After I ran the locomotive, I noticed the boiler looked much harder and more realistic, while the cab retained its "rubbery" look. A trip through the oven made all the paint look the same, and much better. Additionally, when I painted the interior of the cab cream, I put it in the oven when the paint was wet, and 20 minutes later it was hardened and ready to put on the locomotive. It works great, as long as you use enamel paint. For the smokebox, I used the paint that is sold in hardware shops for the purpose of painting barbecues or wood stoves. It dries quickly to a nice flat finish that I think looks pretty good. The smokeboxes of real locomotives tend to painted with a similar high-temp paint.

Again, you did a great job soldering the cab. But I think you could benefit from slowing down, reading the instructions several times, dry-fit everything, and if it doesn't fit, ask for help or think some more before taking a grinder to it. When you get to the part where you have to assemble the valve-gear, it will be imperative that you understand exactly what you are doing before you do it.

[siclick33]

Quote from the instructions:

'The hinge has slotted holes to allow for adjustment of the roof position. After tightening into position, file away any excess thread'.

Only 2 pages later (in the section about the tank support) does it say, 'the nuts on the inside should be left slightly loose to allow the hinge to operate'.

So it is tight, or is it loose? Nowhere does it say that the roof should be lifted to open; a hinge operating is just rotating, not lifting! Maybe we have different ideas on what constitute excellent instructions; these aren't too bad but they aren't fully comprehensive (there aren't many diagrams showing where things should go) and they jump about all over the place. In any case, I am mainly posting here to show others where the unclear areas are; this is certainly one of them.


I did work all that out through trial and error, but there was still no way that the nuts that hold the roof hinge strap would clear the front panel when opened. I couldn't even push the roof down as the ends of the hinge strap was getting stuck on the inside flanges of the cab front. I have an engineering background; none of this was caused by rushing!

EDITED TO ADD: I've re-read the instructions and it is clearer now, but I still think it could have been explained better. The initial 'tightening' refers to the hinge strap on the roof. The 'should be left slightly loose' refers to the hinge where it meets the cab body. That still wouldn't have helped in my situation though, due to the interaction with the flange that I mentioned earlier.

It looks ok but I think it might annoy me now, so I might de-solder it all and replace the cab front with a new one. If I put some extra washers in between the hinge and the cab then I might be able to push the hinge bracket far enough away from the sides that it clears the flange.