16mm scale "Linda"

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Keith S
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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Keith S » Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:02 pm

Trevor Thompson wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:23 pm The drawings showed 8BA grub screws holding the eccentrics. I adjusted them initially at dead centre. When assembled I adjusted each one until the valves were opening just after dead centre, and closing again after about 75 - 80% of the travel.

A bit crude I know but it seems to have worked.

Trevor
A bit crude, maybe, but this is pretty much the method Roundhouse advocates for valve-timing on their kit models.

I must say how glad I am you've decided to start posting about this model. Many of us lack the skill and/or machinery to make a locomotive completely from scratch, and there are several of these in the works right now which is very inspirational. And, this shouldn't be considered a slight towards anyone's building, but the other chaps, well it seems to me that their builds are very polished- which is a good thing- but I especially like this one because you readily admit that sometimes your ideas don't work out, and your locomotive (again I hope not to cause offence) bears the tool-marks from having been made out of pieces of metal hand-worked the old-fashioned way. Which again, isn't necessarily a virtue nor is it a fault, but for me it's just a little easier to appreciate in a way for someone like me who struggles to do a nice job on a Brandbright coach-kit and usually has to do things twice or thrice before they work out. I like to hear about the trial-and -error approach to home engineering, although when it happens to me I struggle to persevere sometimes.

Anyway, I just wanted to register my appreciation for your work, and I'm looking forward to seeing more.

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Hydrostatic Dazza » Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:51 pm

Bravo
Cheers from Dazza, The Hydrostatic Lubricator 8)
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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by GTB » Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:58 am

Trevor Thompson wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:23 pm I could only get the 8BA grub screws with slotted heads - and they are far too weak. I kept breaking them. So I would certainly lock the eccentrics permanently before assembly next time.
Slotted head grub screws are about as much use as a chocolate teapot in my opinion, much too easy to break off one side of the slot.......

I've used M3 hex socket grub screws in the eccentrics of the two sets of Stephensons vg that I've scratchbuilt so far and 6BA in the set I rebuilt. I've not had any movement of the eccentrics in service once the vg is set up and the grub screws tightened.

I can drive down the road and buy M3 hex socket grub screws, but I had to import the 6BA ones from the UK, which is why I've now standardized on M3.

Personally I prefer to be able to set each eccentric separately. Prototype eccentrics were keyed to the axle, so the only way to adjust the valve gear was to remove the eccentric rods and get a blacksmith to stretch, or shrink, the rod(s) that needed adjustment. Not for this little black duck........

If you use hex socket grub screws, the key can be also used to sight the eccentric position relative to the crank pin, which makes adjustment fairly easy. A suitably positioned hole drilled in the eccentric straps means adjustments can be made with the valve gear fully erected and the hole can do double duty as an oiling point.

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Trevor Thompson » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:53 pm

[/quote]

A bit crude, maybe, but this is pretty much the method Roundhouse advocates for valve-timing on their kit models.

I must say how glad I am you've decided to start posting about this model. Many of us lack the skill and/or machinery to make a locomotive completely from scratch, and there are several of these in the works right now which is very inspirational. And, this shouldn't be considered a slight towards anyone's building, but the other chaps, well it seems to me that their builds are very polished- which is a good thing- but I especially like this one because you readily admit that sometimes your ideas don't work out, and your locomotive (again I hope not to cause offence) bears the tool-marks from having been made out of pieces of metal hand-worked the old-fashioned way. Which again, isn't necessarily a virtue nor is it a fault, but for me it's just a little easier to appreciate in a way for someone like me who struggles to do a nice job on a Brandbright coach-kit and usually has to do things twice or thrice before they work out. I like to hear about the trial-and -error approach to home engineering, although when it happens to me I struggle to persevere sometimes.

Anyway, I just wanted to register my appreciation for your work, and I'm looking forward to seeing more.
[/quote]

Thanks for the kind words. It is good to hear that my input to the website is appreciated.

Trevor

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Trevor Thompson » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:59 pm

Maybe it is worth persevering with grub screws, certainly M2.5 sounds attractive - I will have to look to see if I have an M2.5 tap? Probably need to buy one! I am planning a Stephenson valved model of one of the large England engines - so that might be the time to try it.

The De Winton has fixed eccentrics - and I hope I have silver soldered them in the correct position! Time will tell.

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Trevor Thompson » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:35 pm

I have been making an attempt at making the injectors on the side of the water tank. I have photos of Linda and I can see that the injectors look nothing like the ones on the drawings for Charles.

It is difficult to make out exactly what and where the pipes actually run. I know how an injector works ( having unsuccessfully tried to make injectors for K1) but that just seems to make the photos more difficult to make out!

So here is my attempt. It doesn't really match the photos but it is a start:
IMG_1052.jpg
IMG_1052.jpg (300.82 KiB) Viewed 5786 times
I am sure that you will be able to guide me to better photos - and perhaps even explain what pipes are going where!!!!

Trevor

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by bambuko » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:54 pm

As an inspiration, here is a screen grab from a Youtube video I have linked in one of my previous posts:
blanche_small.jpg
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don't know how good it is and not sure whether he actually uses if functionally? rather than just cosmetically?

and... here, resonable picture of full size thing:
piping.jpg
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Would love if someone knowledgeable explained the whole thing to me as well :mrgreen:
Last edited by bambuko on Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by bambuko » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:07 pm

TonyW wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:14 am ...The tightest curve on the FR main line is Tyler's which, with a radius of 157 feet, works at about 2.5m radius in 16mm/foot scale and larger than the average curve found on most 16mm lines.
I did a bit of 3D CAD modelling to check things, and it would be perfectly feasible to run it on 1.2m (or 4ft) radius.
So not really that extreme? althought I guess something like 1.5m (or 5ft) would be better?
curve.jpg
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I am not suggesting this for Trevor (as I know he hopes to run on tracks with smaller radius), but for anybody else who is reading and would be interested.

Sorry for the thread creep :mrgreen:

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Trevor Thompson » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:17 pm

bambuko wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:07 pm
TonyW wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:14 am ...The tightest curve on the FR main line is Tyler's which, with a radius of 157 feet, works at about 2.5m radius in 16mm/foot scale and larger than the average curve found on most 16mm lines.
I did a bit of 3D CAD modelling to check things, and it would be perfectly feasible to run it on 1.2m (or 4ft) radius.
So not really that extreme? althought I guess something like 1.5m (or 5ft) would be better?

curve.jpg

I am not suggesting this for Trevor (as I know he hopes to run on tracks with smaller radius), but for anybody else who is reading and would be interested.

Sorry for the thread creep :mrgreen:
That is actually interesting. No need to apologise!

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by TonyW » Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:29 pm

bambuko wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:54 pmWould love if someone knowledgeable explained the whole thing to me as well :mrgreen:
I might know a bit...

Linda as first converted for FR use:
Image
Basically, still in Penrhyn condition with two injectors mounted on the side of the saddle tank.

Your later/current picture shows only one injector (the front one) still remaining on the tank. The back one has gone and has been replaced by a pipe that runs to a larger injector mounted under the cab floor. By flicking some valves this injector can be fed by either the saddle tank or the tender tank. The small one on the tank side only works off the saddle, not surprisingly.
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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by bambuko » Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:55 pm

Thank you Tony,
that's very good explanation and helps understanding things a lot :thumbright:

One other thing I have noticed on your photo, is that it seems that in original/Penrhyn condition valve gear lever was on the RH side? (and getting in a way of the piping :P ).
This is reflected in Keith Bucklitch's plans an both Trevor's and Gandy Dancer's (see youtube link in my earlier post) models.

All the photos I have of both ladies in the later/Ffestiniog condition seem to have moved it to LH side?

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by TonyW » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:23 pm

The driving position was swapped from the right to the left-hand side in the 1960s ... putting the injectors under the fireman's control for the first time.

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Trevor Thompson » Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:49 pm

That really explains quite a lot!

I wondered about the driving position and the differences in the reverser gear. I couldn't understand why the plans show the reverser on the right hand side and the photos are the opposite!

Also that explains the injectors. The original situation is as per the drawing for Charles - and I can understand the arrangement (I think). The water comes directly from the tank side. The steam supplies come from the cab where there have to be valves to operate them. The overflows are easy to spot, and the clack valves are in the side of the boiler below the tank.

I might just modify what I have done to fit in with this. Nothing I have made can't be modified!

Thanks

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by GTB » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:11 pm

Trevor Thompson wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:59 pm Maybe it is worth persevering with grub screws, certainly M2.5 sounds attractive - I will have to look to see if I have an M2.5 tap? Probably need to buy one! I am planning a Stephenson valved model of one of the large England engines - so that might be the time to try it.
Sounds like a plan.

Whatever size grub screws you use, lay in a few hex keys as well, as the little ones don't last long in my experience and I can verify that breaking one in a grub screw, or rounding out the socket by using a worn key, ruins your whole day......... :shock:

The other thing I found out the hard way is don't use grub screws with silver steel shafts and axles. They don't grip properly, as the silver steel is too hard to penetrate properly. I should have known better, but had run out of round BMS in that size. :roll:

Regards,
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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by GTB » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:37 pm

Trevor Thompson wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:49 pm Also that explains the injectors. The original situation is as per the drawing for Charles - and I can understand the arrangement (I think). The water comes directly from the tank side. The steam supplies come from the cab where there have to be valves to operate them. The overflows are easy to spot, and the clack valves are in the side of the boiler below the tank.
I was wondering where the water valves were, but close inspection of Tony's photo shows they are part of the fitting where the injectors are connected to the saddle tank. The water control rods can just be seen running back into the cab.

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by TonyW » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:55 pm

At that time, they were standard Hunslet injectors. The water valve is actually part of the injector body and is no more than a taper plug with a cross hole. I won't post an image link but you can see exactly the same type of injector on Lilla here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... t_2011.jpg
Click on the image to make it bigger.
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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Trevor Thompson » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:00 pm

While I am waiting for some fine copper mesh for a gas filter to arrive I am adding the details. The bits I missed off - while I prioritised getting a working loco. I have modified and remade the dummy injectors and their associated piping. This is a bit more like the prototype:
IMG_1066.jpg
IMG_1066.jpg (358.38 KiB) Viewed 5517 times
I am going to have to change the reach rod to make it a bit more realistic. The rear injector pipe and clack valve are preventing the reach rod moving properly. Also I think the bit of bent brass rod is flexing as the servo arm moves, resulting in lost travel, and I think that might be why changing from ahead to astern doesn't quite work half of the time. So two reasons to modify it. That is a job for tomorrow!

The only other detail which I know I missed off are the dummy springs. So while I am working in that area I will make springs and fit them. I have four top leaves left over from K1 - so there is a starting point. Instead of the working springs on K1 these will be dummies!

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Trevor Thompson » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:05 pm

And of course I will have to do something to the cab. That will have to come off to get at the servo and the reach rod. I might as well sort out the spectacle plates - they really are not close enough to the real appearance. They are the result of cutting square holes before I realised the plans for Charles didn't apply to Linda in this area.

I also need to suggest the joint between top and bottom of the cab sides, the rivet detail, and perhaps even an edging for the cab sides.

Trevor

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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Trevor Thompson » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:23 pm

A start on the springs. One spring assembled and another three as blank spring leafs. I made the centre piece by milling some hex rod. Yet to add the rods which on the real thing connect to the chassis. In this case the centre of the spring will be bolted behind the chassis.
IMG_1071.jpg
IMG_1071.jpg (341.04 KiB) Viewed 5476 times
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Re: 16mm scale "Linda"

Post by Trevor Thompson » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:38 pm

I nhave finished making the springs and fitted them, I have also made a new reach rod which is stiffer, to replace the bit of bent wire.
IMG_1087.jpg
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IMG_1086.jpg
IMG_1086.jpg (289.73 KiB) Viewed 5374 times
Just the spectacle plate to play with now, and then I will try to get video of it running properly.

Trevor

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