W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
My first Topic on the forum! I thought I would share my experiences about building The Lineside Hut kit for the W&LLR Brake van.
Here's the prototype at Cryfronydd 02.09.2017: The kit arrived in a parcel well protected in bubble-wrap. In addition to the body kit, I purchased the chassis kit and a pair of centre buffers. Some of the outside frame parts are very fragile and one of the end frames had a piece broken off, which was repaired. The internal sides have the planking made by cutting completely through the ply with the laser, with just 2mm or so at the end of each cut retained to keep the part together. These are again very fragile and I managed to break both of the long side parts. In truth, the laser cutting on these two parts were excessive compared to the ends and doors. There were cuts of about 0.75mm width. To improve the strength I ran neat PVA down each cut with a fine brush and the wiped the excess off the surface. This filled the gap and had the advantage that when painted, the paint would not leak through from one side to the other. I wish to paint the interior light cream and the exterior light grey. In order to keep the side flat whilst the PVA dried, I placed a weight on it, whilst sat on plate glass. The instructions suggest constructing the external framing first. Care must be taken as the ends in particular are very fragile. The floor was stained a dark oak colour and when dry, was glued to the external frame work. This improves the strength somewhat, but care is required when handling. The inside surface of the ends was painted light cream and glued to the assembly. When all was dry, I tried a trial fit of the windows to the ends with the outer parts which keep them in place. The windows as supplied are thicker than the ply that they sit into and the outer parts would not sit flush with the ends. I dashed an e-mail off to Lineside Hut asking for help. A reply was received within the hour offering a solution. Additional ends are going to be cut from 0.8mm material and posted to me. These will be attached to the existing end framework to thicken it. This is rather good customer service I think.
Here's the prototype at Cryfronydd 02.09.2017: The kit arrived in a parcel well protected in bubble-wrap. In addition to the body kit, I purchased the chassis kit and a pair of centre buffers. Some of the outside frame parts are very fragile and one of the end frames had a piece broken off, which was repaired. The internal sides have the planking made by cutting completely through the ply with the laser, with just 2mm or so at the end of each cut retained to keep the part together. These are again very fragile and I managed to break both of the long side parts. In truth, the laser cutting on these two parts were excessive compared to the ends and doors. There were cuts of about 0.75mm width. To improve the strength I ran neat PVA down each cut with a fine brush and the wiped the excess off the surface. This filled the gap and had the advantage that when painted, the paint would not leak through from one side to the other. I wish to paint the interior light cream and the exterior light grey. In order to keep the side flat whilst the PVA dried, I placed a weight on it, whilst sat on plate glass. The instructions suggest constructing the external framing first. Care must be taken as the ends in particular are very fragile. The floor was stained a dark oak colour and when dry, was glued to the external frame work. This improves the strength somewhat, but care is required when handling. The inside surface of the ends was painted light cream and glued to the assembly. When all was dry, I tried a trial fit of the windows to the ends with the outer parts which keep them in place. The windows as supplied are thicker than the ply that they sit into and the outer parts would not sit flush with the ends. I dashed an e-mail off to Lineside Hut asking for help. A reply was received within the hour offering a solution. Additional ends are going to be cut from 0.8mm material and posted to me. These will be attached to the existing end framework to thicken it. This is rather good customer service I think.
- tom_tom_go
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Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Linside Hut kit)
Hi Paul and welcome.
I have not made a kit for years but after Peter Butler mentioned he bought one of Lineside Hut's kits I had a look and there stuff looked good on their website although I am disappointed now that you have had issues as these kits are not cheap and are not supplied with axle boxes, wheels or couplings.
Please continue to post progress!
I have not made a kit for years but after Peter Butler mentioned he bought one of Lineside Hut's kits I had a look and there stuff looked good on their website although I am disappointed now that you have had issues as these kits are not cheap and are not supplied with axle boxes, wheels or couplings.
Please continue to post progress!
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Simon at Lineside Hut explained that the problem with the Windows was because of material tolerances. The windows were at the top limit and the ply at the lower limit. His prompt reply and solution is good.
The planking issue is a manufacturing problem. Either the laser was set too high or the ply cuts more easily than ‘normal’. I think that in using a single pass of the laser to create planking on both sides is probably done to reduce costs. To part cut from both sides would increase laser cutting time and costs.
I’ve been building kits in 7mm and 16mm scales for 30 years and and only a minority’s have been built with no problems; either design, manufacturing or packing. I’ll reserve my final judgement on value for money until the project is complete.
The planking issue is a manufacturing problem. Either the laser was set too high or the ply cuts more easily than ‘normal’. I think that in using a single pass of the laser to create planking on both sides is probably done to reduce costs. To part cut from both sides would increase laser cutting time and costs.
I’ve been building kits in 7mm and 16mm scales for 30 years and and only a minority’s have been built with no problems; either design, manufacturing or packing. I’ll reserve my final judgement on value for money until the project is complete.
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Before I report on further progress, some incidental notes.
For reference, I am using:
I don't always stick the order recommended in instructions either. One primary consideration when reading through them for the first time is how will it be painted and at what point. For this kit, I will paint certain items as I build it and not at the end. For example, the interior of the sides and ends will be painted before I glue them in place. This ensures that there is no over painting of the stained and weathered floor. For paint, I've been prudent and bought two 125ml sample tins of matt pale cream and pale grey emulsion from Wilko! That should see me through for all the wagons I am planning to build. Elsewhere I've varied the order; the headstocks were drilled for the couplings and fitted immediately after the floor was fitted and the glue had set. This protects the fragile lower frame sections of the ends.
The Chassis Kit
I purchased the chassis kit a) to see what it was like and b) because it was about the same price as buying separate wheels and axle guards. To quote the instructions: The chassis kit contains four long sole bars and four short spacers, these require gluing together on a flat surface to double their thickness. Once dry they need to be made up into an "H" like shape....."
Well, this makes up a solebar that is 6mm thick, but the headstock is 12mm deep. Hmmm..... I think the saving grace here is that the underpinnings will mostly be hidden by the full length foot boards.
The photos above convey what's going on. The intention is to glue the axle guards into the rear recess of the solebars. I'm not over struck with this as it relies on a single glue face for integrity. Garden railways can be a harsh running environment and I subscribe to the 'belt-and-braces' school of engineering. So I made up pockets for the top of the axleguards to fit in.
When the glue had set, a temporary trial was made on a spare piece of (shock horror) 7mm scale 32mm gauge track.
The other brake van is scratchbuilt and is loosely based on a photo of a Ballymena and Larne example.
In conclusion, I don't think I would buy a chassis kit again, preferring to make one up from strip wood and sourcing my own components. However, if one is not confident at making ones own chassis, it does provide a kit to use.
I intend to add detail to the kit as a go along and here is the first piece of frippery. The glazing beading is represented by light laser cuts into the ply. I am fitting 20 thou square microstrip around the windows. A tad under size, but photos show these to be small on the prototype. I just happen to have a packet of the stuff.
For reference, I am using:
- The Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway. Guy Williams. Wild Swan.
- Welshpool and Llanfair Light Railway. The original service years - 1903 to 56 - 16mm scale drawings. Bernard Rockett Theodore Press.
I don't always stick the order recommended in instructions either. One primary consideration when reading through them for the first time is how will it be painted and at what point. For this kit, I will paint certain items as I build it and not at the end. For example, the interior of the sides and ends will be painted before I glue them in place. This ensures that there is no over painting of the stained and weathered floor. For paint, I've been prudent and bought two 125ml sample tins of matt pale cream and pale grey emulsion from Wilko! That should see me through for all the wagons I am planning to build. Elsewhere I've varied the order; the headstocks were drilled for the couplings and fitted immediately after the floor was fitted and the glue had set. This protects the fragile lower frame sections of the ends.
The Chassis Kit
I purchased the chassis kit a) to see what it was like and b) because it was about the same price as buying separate wheels and axle guards. To quote the instructions: The chassis kit contains four long sole bars and four short spacers, these require gluing together on a flat surface to double their thickness. Once dry they need to be made up into an "H" like shape....."
Well, this makes up a solebar that is 6mm thick, but the headstock is 12mm deep. Hmmm..... I think the saving grace here is that the underpinnings will mostly be hidden by the full length foot boards.
The photos above convey what's going on. The intention is to glue the axle guards into the rear recess of the solebars. I'm not over struck with this as it relies on a single glue face for integrity. Garden railways can be a harsh running environment and I subscribe to the 'belt-and-braces' school of engineering. So I made up pockets for the top of the axleguards to fit in.
When the glue had set, a temporary trial was made on a spare piece of (shock horror) 7mm scale 32mm gauge track.
The other brake van is scratchbuilt and is loosely based on a photo of a Ballymena and Larne example.
In conclusion, I don't think I would buy a chassis kit again, preferring to make one up from strip wood and sourcing my own components. However, if one is not confident at making ones own chassis, it does provide a kit to use.
I intend to add detail to the kit as a go along and here is the first piece of frippery. The glazing beading is represented by light laser cuts into the ply. I am fitting 20 thou square microstrip around the windows. A tad under size, but photos show these to be small on the prototype. I just happen to have a packet of the stuff.
- tom_tom_go
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Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Thanks for the progress report Paul.
You have confirmed that the chassis kit would not be required if I were to purchase one of these.
You have confirmed that the chassis kit would not be required if I were to purchase one of these.
- Peter Butler
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Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Watching with interest Paul and learning from your experience! My current (first time wooden kit) build is Lineside Hut's four compartment carriage, which I am painting before assembly. What adhesive should I use to attach painted wood sections to each other both on flat and corner joins?
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Peter, I’m being very careful and avoiding painting any surfaces that will be used for gluing! Easier said than done, particularly on a panelled coach. That said, if it’s to glue the beading over the panelling, possibility PVA as it won’t be structural. What paint are you using?Peter Butler wrote: ↑Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:39 pm Watching with interest Paul and learning from your experience! My current (first time wooden kit) build is Lineside Hut's four compartment carriage, which I am painting before assembly. What adhesive should I use to attach painted wood sections to each other both on flat and corner joins?
- Peter Butler
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Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
I prefer acrylic grey primer and car acrylic top coat. I am applying several coats, rubbing down between layers, as I try to disguise the wood-grain effect, particularly where the grain runs in the wrong direction...... why do manufacturers do that?????
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
I can’t really help you you with recommending a glue for that. I’m painting by hand for the brake van as good stock does not really require a high quality finish. I’m not after the Accucraft RTR finish, which to me doesn’t look right for goods stock. Somewhere on the ‘net I saw somebody build a Brandbright panelled coach, which had a two colour livery. It may have been on the Garden Railway Club site. There may be ideas there.
Edit to add it is on the Green Railway Club site. You have to search down the left hand topic list a fair way to Wagons and Carriages.
Edit to add it is on the Green Railway Club site. You have to search down the left hand topic list a fair way to Wagons and Carriages.
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Looking really good so far - and I love the scratchbuilt brake in the picture too. Admirable attention to detail around the windows - it's that sort of thing that turns a quick build into a very lengthy one!
I use Liberon sanding sealer for passenger carriages, as recommended by Neil Ramsey, who probably makes the best carriages I've seen. I quite like a little grain on wagons, but I've taken to using individual planks (well, veneers of planks over a solid shell...) so that the grain doesn't go right across the lot.
Looking forward to seeing more progress - thanks for sharing the build so far...
Andrew.
I use Liberon sanding sealer for passenger carriages, as recommended by Neil Ramsey, who probably makes the best carriages I've seen. I quite like a little grain on wagons, but I've taken to using individual planks (well, veneers of planks over a solid shell...) so that the grain doesn't go right across the lot.
Looking forward to seeing more progress - thanks for sharing the build so far...
Andrew.
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
To get a smooth surface on wood I use a locally available sanding sealer, equivalent I'd guess to what Andrew uses. Left to dry overnight, it dries hard enough to sand and recoat the next day. I find find two coats, rubbing down between each coat gives a smooth finish with the type of woods and ply I use for building rolling stock.Peter Butler wrote: ↑Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:14 pm I prefer acrylic grey primer and car acrylic top coat. I am applying several coats, rubbing down between layers, as I try to disguise the wood-grain effect, particularly where the grain runs in the wrong direction......
I've got a copy of the old VR procedure for painting wooden pass cars, it involved about seven coats of primer and paint, with much sanding and liberal use of putty and filler. Which is why I build pass car models using polystyrene sheet.
I glue wooden bodies together with aliphatic PVA (the yellow stuff) and then seal the wood surfaces, as yellow glue is designed to soak into the wood to form the bond and it doesn't work very well on non-porous surfaces. I have a selection of little sanding blocks made by sticking sandpaper to a block of polystyrene with double sided tape, which allows the sanding sealer to be sanded right into corners etc. They can be made any shape you like, even rounded for getting into curved corners.
To glue wooden parts that are already sealed/primed/painted, I'd probably use one of the new generation cyanoacrylates like the one made by Gorilla, which aren't as brittle as the cheap type of superglue. That might be a bit problematic though with very thin UK style carriage mouldings, as you don't get long to line things up.
As an alternative for glueing decorative moulding, I'd probably use a rubber based contact cement. Run a thin bead along along the back of the moulding and place the moulding on to the side straight away. That way you get some working time and it will still stick OK once it dries. The chances of getting things in the right place using the normal contact cement procedure are probably even lower than using cyanoacrylate.
Given the grain I see on the sheets of ply available locally, it probably wouldn't make much difference which way parts were cut from the sheet. Even the AA grade birch ply that I get from the aero model shop has grain that looks like the veneers came from a birch burl....... It was a major job scribing straight lines for planking on the last wooden wagon I built.
Regards,
Graeme
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
The additional 0.8mm end frets arrived today. A quick dry run showed they will solve the problem. Now glued on and will try again when all dried . A quick response from Lineside Hut to solve this problem. Photos of progress to follow, but now off to move 3 ponies who trashed an electric fence this morning and ripped a wire out the energiser .
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
I have now glued the ends and sides into the body framework.
The odd painted panel in the bottom left had corner is because I used the 16mm association stencil to letter up the van.
Next, I made up the door runners. I pondered over the wording of the instructions. This extract from the instructions shows in Figure 2 how the runners fit together. Part B is handed and Part A is shorter than B & C. 'A' fits under the floor and behind the headstock, hence the shorter length. For 'B', the 'thicker' end, shown on the right hand side in Figure 2 goes at the end AWAY from the headstock.
This photo from underneath shows how it all fits.
A top view.
I then added the two corner jambs at this point, rather than later as per the instructions. Note that the kit provides 4 of these jambs. Two are intended to go at the non veranda end. The prototype is not fitted with these, so I omitted them. If you fit them, you will not be able to fit and corner ironwork that you make to detail the kit.Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Further progress.
I have made up the doors as per the instructions. The lower door guide 'H' was stained, but in reality will not be seen. The beading for the windows on the end overlays has been completed and this has been spray undercoated using a Halfords Primer rattle can. These goodies arrived from Trenarren Models last week (very prompt service!)
They are:
Finally a photo of the Pickering GA of the original build. I am going make up and add the two lockers from scratch. The short one by the door will be moved to the other side of the van as photos of the vans in the condition that the kit represents shows the stove to have moved there! The doors can be made to work, which I will do. However I expect the van will run with them always open so that one can peer in and see the details.
I have made up the doors as per the instructions. The lower door guide 'H' was stained, but in reality will not be seen. The beading for the windows on the end overlays has been completed and this has been spray undercoated using a Halfords Primer rattle can. These goodies arrived from Trenarren Models last week (very prompt service!)
They are:
- Pot Bellied Stove
- Broom
- Drivers kit
Finally a photo of the Pickering GA of the original build. I am going make up and add the two lockers from scratch. The short one by the door will be moved to the other side of the van as photos of the vans in the condition that the kit represents shows the stove to have moved there! The doors can be made to work, which I will do. However I expect the van will run with them always open so that one can peer in and see the details.
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Some more progress. I have been working on the internal detail and am in the process of making the lockers/seats. Because all of my woodworking tools are in storage, I made the basic shape for the lockers from plastic card. The 'boxes' are well braced internally to prevent warping. Hole were drilled in the base pieces to let any trapped solvent evaporate.
I scribed up some 0.8mm ply to represent the planking and glued this to the box, using basic clear glue which works for both wood and plastic card.
Additionally, I strengthen the sides over the door openings. I felt this could be a potential weak point. Two lengths of 'coffee stirrers' trimmed to length did the business, taking care not to obstruct the cut outs for the transverse roof supports.
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Progress has been slow as I’ve been painting the sides by hand. It really is a case of watching paint dry as it takes about 90 minutes per side for a single coat. By the time I’d finished the last panel, the first was dry!
I think there’s a typo in the instructions. In setting out the position of the split pins that hold the door upper guide rail, 50mm of the copper wire is to be cut. I made it 90mm for the door to work correctly in the lower channel. I used 1.4mm hard brass wire instead of the copper as I’m my opinion, it’s too soft.Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
I've been following the build with interest. A fascinating insight into how to kitbuild with finesse. I'm not sure I have the dexterity or expertise (or sufficiently unchubby fingers) to handle such delicate parts, but the way you have documented the build does help to inspire.
Rik
Rik
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Thanks Rik. I’m completely self taught model kit assembly wise, except I do have a grade 1 ‘O’ level woodwork! Dad was a carpenter and joiner and had done some cabinet making as well. So I suppose I do have some training. Ask me to sketch or paint a picture though and I’m hopeless.
Apart from the thickness issue with the ends and the windows, which was quickly sorted by Simon at Lineside Hut, all the parts are crisp and accurate. The instructions are a bit wobbly in places, but not the worst I’ve seen in 30 years plus of building kits in 7mm and 16mm scale. The brake van would be a tricky scratch build because of the outside framing with the multitude of triangles. The ends are pretty interesting as well. So the kit will for me provide a better quality finish.
I’d definitely buy another Lineside Hut kit. The WLLR cattle vans and sheep wagons would be good candidates as again they are tricky to build from scratch. I’m going to buy components next, to scratchbuild 3 WLLR open wagons as they are quite simple in comparison.
Apart from the thickness issue with the ends and the windows, which was quickly sorted by Simon at Lineside Hut, all the parts are crisp and accurate. The instructions are a bit wobbly in places, but not the worst I’ve seen in 30 years plus of building kits in 7mm and 16mm scale. The brake van would be a tricky scratch build because of the outside framing with the multitude of triangles. The ends are pretty interesting as well. So the kit will for me provide a better quality finish.
I’d definitely buy another Lineside Hut kit. The WLLR cattle vans and sheep wagons would be good candidates as again they are tricky to build from scratch. I’m going to buy components next, to scratchbuild 3 WLLR open wagons as they are quite simple in comparison.
- Peter Butler
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Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Paul, that could so easily be me talking, I have been involved with fine art (framing and display) all my life but couldn't draw or paint at all.
My second order from Lineside hut arrived in the post this morning and I am about to make 2x two wheel carriages from one four compartment side and end pack.
My first attempt has been a success, I think....
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?
Re: W&LLR Brake Van (Lineside Hut kit)
Hey, I can top that! My one and only A Level was in Technical Drawing (Grade C). Quite useful for marking-up but not a whole lot of use for anything else these days with CAD.
Rik
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