Why Live Steam?

Discussion of Live Steam locomotives should be located here
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IrishPeter
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by IrishPeter » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:48 pm

I rather like steam from the point of view that it is real as opposed to fake, but it is also a bit exasperating at times - which I suppose adds to the realism. The relatively flat Skebawn and Castleknox (15mm scale/45mm gauge) down in the basement is a nice environment for running live steamers in that everything is up high (3'8"), it is easy to grab the regulator, and being modelled on a small scale Irish tramway the atmosphere is relative relaxed in terms of running trains - one engine in steam; mixed trains; and not much intermediate traffic. It has ended up at the Castlederg and Victoria Bridge end of things eking out an existence on the traffic from a small Irish market town.

The mischief planned for outside - 13.5mm scale/32mm - is a bit more sophisticated, but will run mainly with battery electric "diesels" because of the amount of shunting I anticipate The excuse for the IC powered locomotives is that the Big Railway that owns the Coverdale Light realises that it gets worthwhile traffic off the line, but that steam operation is doing nasty things to the bottom line. The LNER experimented with IC traction - railcars & locomotives - so I am on safe territory there, and both the GCR and the NER had experimented successfully with Petrol-electric railcars before the Great War! The Bollington Bug lasted 20 years, and the two autocars lasted 25+ years in service, and one is currently being restored after a spell as a holiday cottage.

13.5mm and 15mm are also large enough scales that things like point and signal control can be done in the same way as the originals, though it may be a while before all the needed ground frames and signal cabins appear on my railways. I tend to get sucked in by the experimental, which is part of the reason for the Ga.3n2.5 project. It gives me an opportunity for transporter wagons, LNER experimental board signalling, and early diesels, whilst the Skebawn appeals to my love of 3' gauge that started when I was a small boy taken on holiday to the Isle of Man.

The one thing I am not contemplating is track power. I got tired of the bird's nest of wiring needed in OO/HO and OO9 a long time ago.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:03 pm

My previous post raises another interesting issue - that of 'driving'.

My GR modelling mate in Aus. (Greg) also makes his own battery powered steam outline locos and also makes his own ESCs using Picaxe chips.

I find that my Deltang receiver/controllers suit my operational needs because they give a lot of precision in terms of control and also include back emf sensing and so my locos generally run at an even speed regardless of the changing load on the motor - ie they don't slow down on curves or when going up gradients or spped up when running downhill.

When I asked Greg if he uses back emf sensing in his homemade ESCs, he told me he had tried it but rejected it because he prefers to 'drive' his locos - opening the throttle on inclines etc.

I suspect that this is one of the attractions for live steam afficionados - the need to 'drive' their locos by continually adjusting the regulator. I know when Zach brings his live steamers to my undulating, tightly curved railway he really enjoys the challenge which driving them throws up.

Because my focus is usually on what happens at each station ( shunting and stock marshalling ) I'm not that interested in the driving experience between stations. Often, I'll set one train off to make its own way to a station while I shunt another train.

As has been said previously, it really all does depend on what we want out of running our railways, I suppose.

Rik
PS Although I used to sell Deltang equipment I am now just a satisfied customer and so am not attempting surreptitious product promotion.
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:04 pm

IrishPeter wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:48 pm I rather like steam from the point of view that it is real as opposed to fake, but it is also a bit exasperating at times - which I suppose adds to the realism. The relatively flat Skebawn and Castleknox (15mm scale/45mm gauge) down in the basement is a nice environment for running live steamers in that everything is up high (3'8"), it is easy to grab the regulator, and being modelled on a small scale Irish tramway the atmosphere is relative relaxed in terms of running trains - one engine in steam; mixed trains; and not much intermediate traffic. It has ended up at the Castlederg and Victoria Bridge end of things eking out an existence on the traffic from a small Irish market town.

The mischief planned for outside - 13.5mm scale/32mm - is a bit more sophisticated, but will run mainly with battery electric "diesels" because of the amount of shunting I anticipate The excuse for the IC powered locomotives is that the Big Railway that owns the Coverdale Light realises that it gets worthwhile traffic off the line, but that steam operation is doing nasty things to the bottom line. The LNER experimented with IC traction - railcars & locomotives - so I am on safe territory there, and both the GCR and the NER had experimented successfully with Petrol-electric railcars before the Great War! The Bollington Bug lasted 20 years, and the two autocars lasted 25+ years in service, and one is currently being restored after a spell as a holiday cottage.

13.5mm and 15mm are also large enough scales that things like point and signal control can be done in the same way as the originals, though it may be a while before all the needed ground frames and signal cabins appear on my railways. I tend to get sucked in by the experimental, which is part of the reason for the Ga.3n2.5 project. It gives me an opportunity for transporter wagons, LNER experimental board signalling, and early diesels, whilst the Skebawn appeals to my love of 3' gauge that started when I was a small boy taken on holiday to the Isle of Man.

The one thing I am not contemplating is track power. I got tired of the bird's nest of wiring needed in OO/HO and OO9 a long time ago.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Would you not consider a steam outline battery loco for your outdoor line?

Rik
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by James from Devon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:16 pm

It's been really interesting to read all the responses to Rik's post.

I love my live steam loco's and I currently have 3 of them. BUT, weather I choose to run them depends largely on my mood. Rik is correct that a certain degree of faffing about is needed to prepare a loco but I quite like that process and for me, seeing the loco come to life and then getting to know it and learning to get it to run at a realistic speed for a decent running time is all part of the attraction. I get nothing from seeing live steamers flying around a track at a scale speed of 600mph! (easy to spot those locos on ebay, they mostly have the paint removed from the edges of the running boards!)

Rik's own videos over the years partly inspired my line design with sidings and loops at stations and I enjoy running trains from one place to another and shunting as I go. For this, I realise now I write this, that I nearly always use an electric loco and the times I have used steam have ended up being a bit frustrating. Likewise, if we are all in the garden having a meal or a barbecue with family or friends, its nice to have the railway running but electric is the choice for this so it can trundle around unsupervised.

Clearly there are pros and cons for Steam, I'd never part with them but sometimes, I just run an electric loco for ease.
Garden railways don't run on steam or electric rather wine and Jedi master level patience

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by IrishPeter » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:27 pm

ge_rik wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:04 pm The mischief planned for outside - 13.5mm scale/32mm - is a bit more sophisticated, but will run mainly with battery electric "diesels" because of the amount of shunting I anticipate The excuse for the IC powered locomotives is that the Big Railway that owns the Coverdale Light realises that it gets worthwhile traffic off the line, but that steam operation is doing nasty things to the bottom line.

Peter in Va
Would you not consider a steam outline battery loco for your outdoor line?

Rik
[/quote]

A lot would depend on what I was trying to achieve. In the main, I like steam to be steam in the larger scales, but I could certainly see myself building something like a Barsi Light Railway 0-8-4T as a battery-electric simply because I am not much of an iron strangler. Other types I could happily contemplate building as live steamers with a bit of help from the kit bashing department. Whether I would actual ever get around to doing it is another matter.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:03 pm

IrishPeter wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:27 pm A lot would depend on what I was trying to achieve. In the main, I like steam to be steam in the larger scales, but I could certainly see myself building something like a Barsi Light Railway 0-8-4T as a battery-electric simply because I am not much of an iron strangler. Other types I could happily contemplate building as live steamers with a bit of help from the kit bashing department. Whether I would actual ever get around to doing it is another matter.
Cheers,
Peter in Va
Hi Peter
You've reminded of another reason I make and run battery locos. All my scratch-built steam outline locos are of prototypes which ae not available commercially - a Southwold Sharpie, a Southwold Manning Wardle, a Davington LR Manning Wardle and a Black Hawthorn 0-4-0.

Like you, there's no way I could make them from metal as I just don't possess the skills but, like Peter Butler, I am quite happy to chop up and stick together a few bits of plastic - though Peter's chopping and sticking is a heck of a lot more exquisite and sophisticated than mine.

I reckon that if I can turn out a loco, then anyone with half a brain and a craft knife can.

Rik
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:28 pm

James from Devon wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:16 pm It's been really interesting to read all the responses to Rik's post.

I love my live steam loco's and I currently have 3 of them. BUT, weather I choose to run them depends largely on my mood. Rik is correct that a certain degree of faffing about is needed to prepare a loco but I quite like that process and for me, seeing the loco come to life and then getting to know it and learning to get it to run at a realistic speed for a decent running time is all part of the attraction. I get nothing from seeing live steamers flying around a track at a scale speed of 600mph! (easy to spot those locos on ebay, they mostly have the paint removed from the edges of the running boards!)

Rik's own videos over the years partly inspired my line design with sidings and loops at stations and I enjoy running trains from one place to another and shunting as I go. For this, I realise now I write this, that I nearly always use an electric loco and the times I have used steam have ended up being a bit frustrating. Likewise, if we are all in the garden having a meal or a barbecue with family or friends, its nice to have the railway running but electric is the choice for this so it can trundle around unsupervised.

Clearly there are pros and cons for Steam, I'd never part with them but sometimes, I just run an electric loco for ease.
Thanks for your contribution, Jim.
I suppose it comes back down to what we want from our railways. Are they there:
  • as a test track for our model making
    To showcase our builds and/or acquisitions
    To enable us to encapsulate the loco driving experience
    As a simulation of running a real railway
    To relive childhood or previous life experiences
    As a means of escaping reality (and the pressures of modern life)
    As therapy to keep us sane
    Etc
Rik
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Graff B. » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:09 pm

Been giving this some more thought. We are a broad church and we all like what we like, which is how it should be.
For me, I find it annoying that battery locos generally tend to be regarded as something to run when you have not got time to steam up or something to retrieve a dead steamer. To me as I have said before they are a loco in there own right not a poor substitute.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by tom_tom_go » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:30 pm

This thread is getting a bit repetitive can we just accept we all like doing different things.

Now back to the trains...

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by invicta280 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:52 pm

tom_tom_go wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:30 pm This thread is getting a bit repetitive can we just accept we all like doing different things.
Do you think so? I think it has been a very interesting and lively discussion.
Maybe we all suspected that garden rail folk were a tolerant bunch who accept that one approach is not necessarily better than another, but it's nice to see it confirmed. If this thread had been on some other model rail fora it would've been pistols at dawn by now.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by FWLR » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:26 am

Well my little two pennies worth is... I like both, Having the RH Billy off Peter is fantastic and also the three little battery locos I have are too. I just love running all of them when I can on my little line, I run the battery ones at a steady speed and run my Billy at speeds to suit the battery ones on the line, so I can have 4 locos running at once, all be it with the help from Anne lol.

I just love being outdoors and having a play with them, after all, thats all we really are doing isn’t it, enjoying what we all love to do and that is running 16mm.

My older Brother looked down on me when I said I was going to build a 16mm garden line, he builds and runs the really big stuff and most of his club look down on 16millers has the poor relation, ( Not so poor with the cost of some live steam ) but who cares what one runs and how one runs them.

I hope this forum doesn’t go down the same road has other model railway forums and get snobby with what we run...just go out and enjoy people...

I do.......... :thumbright: :thumbright: :thumbright:

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Keith S » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:08 am

I was originally drawn to garden railways because of the steam engines. I come from a family of railway modellers, but thought the gene had skipped me until I saw a Roundhouse locomotive on Youtube. What was I doing watching railway videos on YouTube? Well, OK, I suppose I liked railways a little, but I certainly never considered having a model railway.

I have always loved steam engines, though. Ships are romantic but you can't really see the engines. Traction engines are interesting but awkward to play with in a realistic environment. Railway engines are convenient to run and they look nice. That's the reason I became interested in 16mm railways.

My rolling stock and scenery, when I get some, is all ancillary to the steam engine, which to me is the star of the show.

I do have an appreciation for the other types of models too. For me though, it's all about the steam engines.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:59 pm

invicta280 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:52 pm
tom_tom_go wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:30 pm This thread is getting a bit repetitive can we just accept we all like doing different things.
Do you think so? I think it has been a very interesting and lively discussion.
Maybe we all suspected that garden rail folk were a tolerant bunch who accept that one approach is not necessarily better than another, but it's nice to see it confirmed. If this thread had been on some other model rail fora it would've been pistols at dawn by now.
Yes, I thought that too.
It's a rare opportunity for me to engage in a discussion of this sort. Interesting to get a balace of views. I'd have expected a few more live steam enthusiasts to chnip in, but maybe they feel what needs to be said has already been said.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:05 pm

FWLR wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:26 am Well my little two pennies worth is... I like both, Having the RH Billy off Peter is fantastic and also the three little battery locos I have are too. I just love running all of them when I can on my little line, I run the battery ones at a steady speed and run my Billy at speeds to suit the battery ones on the line, so I can have 4 locos running at once, all be it with the help from Anne lol.

I just love being outdoors and having a play with them, after all, thats all we really are doing isn’t it, enjoying what we all love to do and that is running 16mm.

My older Brother looked down on me when I said I was going to build a 16mm garden line, he builds and runs the really big stuff and most of his club look down on 16millers has the poor relation, ( Not so poor with the cost of some live steam ) but who cares what one runs and how one runs them.

I hope this forum doesn’t go down the same road has other model railway forums and get snobby with what we run...just go out and enjoy people...

I do.......... :thumbright: :thumbright: :thumbright:
Quite so Rod.
I suppose I feel I don't really belong anywhere. I don't really fit in with the G Scale community as I model UK outline using batteries and I don't really fit into the 16mm community as I primarily run steam outline battery locos.

As has been said, I would probably have been lynched by now on any other forum - though no doubt there are some who are already swinging their noose for me.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by tom_tom_go » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:31 pm

Any scale, any gauge...

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by IrishPeter » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:37 pm

Not in this corner, Rik. I work in a profession where strong opinions, and strong characters are not infrequently encountered, and where there is a good degree of healthy individualism, so the fact that folks do the same thing - build garden railways, but in different ways - live steam, battery, track power, 32mm/45mm/2.5" - seems right and natural. In a way, I fled to the Garden gauges because I find its lack of a rigid orthodoxy refreshing after dealing with some of the rivet counting OO types who sort of constitute themselves as an informal Gestapo to put you right on every thing you don't do their way. Hobbies are hobbies and although we all engage in the same hobby I would guess we all want slightly different things out of it. I am a bit of an oddity myself in that I am interested in early petrol and diesel locos. I also suffer from Calthropitis, and an interest in operations. Others but the emphasis on the garden not the railway; still others like the model engineering aspects, others are kit-bashers. Great! I have learned a heck of a lot from the all sorts and conditions of Garden Railway folks we have here on the board.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:06 pm

Keith S wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:08 am I was originally drawn to garden railways because of the steam engines. I come from a family of railway modellers, but thought the gene had skipped me until I saw a Roundhouse locomotive on Youtube. What was I doing watching railway videos on YouTube? Well, OK, I suppose I liked railways a little, but I certainly never considered having a model railway.

I have always loved steam engines, though. Ships are romantic but you can't really see the engines. Traction engines are interesting but awkward to play with in a realistic environment. Railway engines are convenient to run and they look nice. That's the reason I became interested in 16mm railways.

My rolling stock and scenery, when I get some, is all ancillary to the steam engine, which to me is the star of the show.

I do have an appreciation for the other types of models too. For me though, it's all about the steam engines.
Hi Keith
That's something I have now come to appreciate which, until I started this thread, I had not even considered - ie that their love of live steam is the prime motivating factor for many garden railway modellers. I know it's bleedin' obvious, but sometimes I don't see what's staring me in the face!

I wonder if we are more nostalgic for steam in the uk than other parts of the world? Certainly we have far more preserved steam railways than anywhere else - or is that just a legacy of Beeching - ie we have more opportunities? Or is it because the little old uk is the cradle of the industrial revolution?

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:16 pm

IrishPeter wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:37 pm Not in this corner, Rik. I work in a profession where strong opinions, and strong characters are not infrequently encountered, and where there is a good degree of healthy individualism, so the fact that folks do the same thing - build garden railways, but in different ways - live steam, battery, track power, 32mm/45mm/2.5" - seems right and natural. In a way, I fled to the Garden gauges because I find its lack of a rigid orthodoxy refreshing after dealing with some of the rivet counting OO types who sort of constitute themselves as an informal Gestapo to put you right on every thing you don't do their way. Hobbies are hobbies and although we all engage in the same hobby I would guess we all want slightly different things out of it. I am a bit of an oddity myself in that I am interested in early petrol and diesel locos. I also suffer from Calthropitis, and an interest in operations. Others but the emphasis on the garden not the railway; still others like the model engineering aspects, others are kit-bashers. Great! I have learned a heck of a lot from the all sorts and conditions of Garden Railway folks we have here on the board.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Hi Peter
That's very reassuring. Maybe we are all ploughing our own little furrows in our own ways - we are all individuals.

I must also confess to being a Calthrop fan - hence my L&M coach bashes. Not had the courage to tackle a Kitson - yet!

Rik
PS what happened to Calvanism and Latitudinarianism - did they not survive the edit?
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by IrishPeter » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:36 am

ge_rik wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:16 pm Hi Peter
That's very reassuring. Maybe we are all ploughing our own little furrows in our own ways - we are all individuals.

I must also confess to being a Calthrop fan - hence my L&M coach bashes. Not had the courage to tackle a Kitson - yet!

Rik
PS what happened to Calvanism and Latitudinarianism - did they not survive the edit?
No, they did not. I thought it was taking my fondness for obscure references a bit too far. My parish is in a university city, and a fair few of my congregation are connected with the education sector somehow either through the charter school system, or the University of Virginia, so I have gotten rather spoilt in that regard. I can usually make fairly obscure references and be sure a majority of the congregation get it.

Calthropitis is what propels the Coverdale Light Project, as does having a certain fondness I have for the NER. In truth, though, I am from GCR territory south of the River Humber. I must admit to a certain temptation to try and imagine what Sam Fay and J. G. Robinson would have done with Calthrop's ideas, but the Cleethorpes, Mablethorpe, and Skegness Light Railway (The Landladies' Line/Seagull Express) does not appeal quite as much as Coverdale - yet! I am quite certain Sir Sam and JG would have tried to out Calthrop Calthrop, as the GCR had a liking for big equipment - such as the Barnums and the 40T bogie coal wagons, and innovative ideas such as power signalling. The one thing that has stopped me so far is that in the GCR and the GNR tended to co-operate with the MS&L's London trains travelling down the GNR main from Retford until the extension opened. The coastal route would have been a GCR tentacle down into GNR territory, which would have upset the balance, though it could have been built as a joint line.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by FWLR » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:22 am

[quote=ge_rik post_id=132371 time=1515784591 user_id=185]
[quote=IrishPeter post_id=132369 time=1515782259 user_id=396]
Not in this corner, Rik. I fled to the Garden gauges because I find its lack of a rigid orthodoxy refreshing after dealing with some of the rivet counting OO types who sort of constitute themselves as an informal Gestapo to put you right on every thing you don't do their way. Hobbies are hobbies and although we all engage in the same hobby I would guess we all want slightly different things out of it.....................Others put the emphasis on the garden not the railway; still others like the model engineering aspects, others are kit-bashers. Great! I have learned a heck of a lot from the all sorts and conditions of Garden Railway folks we have here on the board.

Cheers,
Peter in Va

Not in this corner either Rik.

It’s the same with the N Gauge brigade, when I started my journey into model railways.

I love my garden line and I have found lots more genuine people who are willing to give support no matter what you run.

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