Why Live Steam?

[Graff B.]

Hi all,

Although I enjoy seeing and running steam, I have far more battery locos in my fleet than steam. I run them far more often and enjoy them for what they are, a loco, not a substitute. In fact the first forum I look at on here is the battery one.
This is my personal preference, the hobby would get rather dull if we all liked the same thing I think.

Regards Alan.

[Busted Bricks]

OK but why not also have a battery loco or two to run once in a while? Why does to have to be live steam, exclusively?

Rik

I have and I do. I used to design and sell battery electric diesel outline locos after all. I also have a PDF models Hunslet kit that I plan to put together some time. However I prefer the live steam experience. I consider myself a live steam enthusiast first and railway modeler second. I like steam engines that do actual work and pulling a train seems to be the best option as boats don't really float my ermm, boat

[ge_rik]

.
I think you need to spend some time with some proper live steamers in person.

Admittedly, I don't have loads of experience but what I've seen at steam ups so far confirms for me that I wouldn't really be able to do a proper operating session with four or five live steam locos rather than my battery locos.

Rik

[ge_rik]

OK but why not also have a battery loco or two to run once in a while? Why does to have to be live steam, exclusively?

Rik

I have and I do. I used to design and sell battery electric diesel outline locos after all. I also have a PDF models Hunslet kit that I plan to put together some time. However I prefer the live steam experience. I consider myself a live steam enthusiast first and railway modeler second. I like steam engines that do actual work and pulling a train seems to be the best option as boats don't really float my ermm, boat

Yes ..... it's generally accepted that electric is ok for diesel outline locos, but steam outline locos have to be live steam. It's that orthodoxy which I'm struggling to come to terms with. I've often read articles where 16 millers discuss having a diesel outline battery powered loco for convenience, but would never consider putting batteries in a steam outline loco - even though that would be equally convenient. I'm pleased to see that PDF (and GRS and Slaters) are producing kits for steam outline battery powered locos, but these are (as far as I know) the only suppliers.

It's puzzling to me. But then, as Tag suggests, it's maybe all down to motivation. If the main reason a modeller has ventured into the garden is to run live steam, then it makes sense for that to be the primary motive power. I suppose for me, the garden has enabled me to fulfil my lifetime ambition of creating and running a complete light railway system - and hence, battery locos are the most effective way for me to achieve that end.

Rik

[ge_rik]

Many thanks to those who have contributed to this discussion so far. I think I'm getting a handle on the key issues - which seem to be related to motivation.

Running a live steam loco seems to have a lot to do with reliving or encapsulating the experience of operating a proper steam loco and everything that is associated with (including what I've referred to as faffing). My experinces of being with live steam 'drivers' also seem to show that they get great satisfaction from gaining mastery of the beast - learning how to cope with each loco's idiosyncrasies and taking pride in being able to control it over an interesting and challenging 'road'. I get all that and can see the attraction.

Because my prime motivations are different, I gain my satisfaction in other ways which live steam does not really address.

Vive la difference .......... maybe?

Rik

[Peter Butler]

My own experience in 16mm modelling has been long since exhibiting 12v track powered stock some 40 years ago. At that time the only live steam exhibits were meths fired Mamod and usually made the venue a very uncomfortable place to be. Whilst huge progress has been made in the design, manufacture, detail and reliability of live steam locomotives I still prefer to use battery powered locomotives for many reasons.....

Positives.... I am not an engineer as I frequently point out in my posts. I am primarily a model-maker so I like to build my own stock in my preferred material, Plastikard, which will only withstand live firing once!.... (never actually tried this!)
The use of battery power means I have almost instant use of any of my locomotives and total control of speed and direction via R/C without any further preparation.
Running time is considerably longer than live steam.
I have infinite design options available as I build whatever I like to run.


Negatives... Live steam locomotives are expensive items to purchase, sometimes to maintain or improve in the desire to be different!
Some owners appear to be 'cheque-book' modellers, have little appreciation for the prototype and its associated train, and even less ability to make them operate realistically. (see any you-tube video for evidence of this).
All too often expensive/valuable live steam locomotives are shown-off on 'test tracks on stilts' with no infrastructure to give an indication of scale or reason for their being. Most don't carry driver figures to add to the realism the owners seem to be strongly supporting by saying their locomotives represent the real thing being powered by live steam..... this always seems odd to me!
I previously owned a Roundhouse Billy just to satisfy my curiosity about operating live steam and, like Rik, was quite disappointed with its, or my own, performance which didn't achieve my expectations and so it has now gone to a new home and should respond better in the right hands.

Clearly this issue can't be proved or resolved either way and remains as personal preference. As long as the trade suppliers continue to offer us a choice we can all be happy.

[tom_tom_go]

This thread just seems to be about knocking live steam because certain people have not experienced it properly.

[Big Jim]

Each to their own is my thoughts on the matter.

I enjoy steaming up and having a play. I think I am more of a 'steam train trundling through the landscape' person than anything else. When I get the PMR built (plans being worked on as we speak) it will be with this in mind. I have tried to be clever and operate a pair of engines at the same time from the same handset and it proved a stressful and pointless exercise. I have seriously considered getting rid of all but one of my steamers as some don't run from one years end to the next, I would always want a steamer as pride of the line but its a lot of money to have tied up in something that doesn't get used much.

[Busted Bricks]

I think it is a very interesting debate and shows just how broad this wonderful hobby can be. I don't see it as knocking live steam. Indeed, if your main goal is to run against a time table then battery electric R/C is probably far more practical.

Even when we are discussing live steam locos only there are very different views on what they should look like and how they should be run. Some prefer as close to scale as possible while others are perfectly happy with a Mamod or other non-scale locos.

I every hobby I have ever been involved in there has always been some finger-pointing and looking down on the practices of the various groups within the hobby. It's no better or worse in this hobby. If anything, the garden railway segment seems to be a bit more relaxed then the indoor smaller scales.

For me it's all about look and feel. Even the best scale models will never be 100% accurate miniatures of the real thing, so why pretend? As longs as I have the heat, the smoke, the oil, the sound then I'm happy to run on a track laid on a table (or in a "proper" garden railway). I'd prefer to build my own locomotives but haven't had the opportunity to do so for several years. Hence it's nice that commercial items are available.

[ge_rik]

This thread just seems to be about knocking live steam because certain people have not experienced it properly.

I don't think that's a fair summary, Tom. I've certainly not knocked live steam, I've tried my best to understand and outline live steam's attractions for those who are motivated by it.

What I've still not been able to pin down is why many 16 millers would not contemplate running a battery powered steam outline loco.

Rik

[LNR]

As has already been said it's down to personal preference. I enjoy preparing a loco, shunting to make up a train, after setting signals, running, shunting at a wayside stop, to finally arrive at a destination, shunt again, then rest. My locos are all manual control, and will run extremely slowly. Some times I'll only get to run two trains, one before lunch, and one after, but it's all done at slow speed and without time considerations. I find when you run regularly, you get to know each loco, and your line, when lubricators need filling, and boilers need topping up and gas too. In the time it takes for a chosen loco to raise steam, my battery loco has brought the rolling stock down to Leawarra, and positioned any stock for wayside shunting. I've had days when I don't leave Leawarra yard, just tootle around, shunting and enjoying the steam and oil smells. It's all about steam for me and trying to replicate a REAL scene.
Grant.

[Busted Bricks]

What I've still not been able to pin down is why many 16 millers would not contemplate running a battery powered steam outline loco.

Rik

Could it be that there are still many people who have had a bad experience with the hassle of track power? They may not realize how practical battery electric R/C can be. Your many posts and videos may help to change that. As far as I know PDF models have sold a fair few of their steam outline locos, so perhaps we are about to see more of them being run in the future?

I built a mock-up of a Cracker in 7/8ths scale and actually plan to power it with an electric motor. It's laser cut from plywood and Polybak so cheap as chips to build.

[ge_rik]

I think it is a very interesting debate and shows just how broad this wonderful hobby can be. I don't see it as knocking live steam. Indeed, if your main goal is to run against a time table then battery electric R/C is probably far more practical.

Even when we are discussing live steam locos only there are very different views on what they should look like and how they should be run. Some prefer as close to scale as possible while others are perfectly happy with a Mamod or other non-scale locos.

I every hobby I have ever been involved in there has always been some finger-pointing and looking down on the practices of the various groups within the hobby. It's no better or worse in this hobby. If anything, the garden railway segment seems to be a bit more relaxed then the indoor smaller scales.

For me it's all about look and feel. Even the best scale models will never be 100% accurate miniatures of the real thing, so why pretend? As longs as I have the heat, the smoke, the oil, the sound then I'm happy to run on a track laid on a table (or in a "proper" garden railway). I'd prefer to build my own locomotives but haven't had the opportunity to do so for several years. Hence it's nice that commercial items are available.

That's a useful and interesting contribution and I agree that this is a fascinating debate (but then, I initiated it). There's no way we will ever get a consensus in our hobby but I think it's true that 16 millers are more tolerant than other branches of our hobby. At the last steam up I attended there were some with very expensive live steam locos and highly detailed rolling stock and also some with tiny battery operated diesels made from IP Engineering kits with a couple of very basic wagons in tow. They were all given equal access to the tracks.

Rik

[ge_rik]

As has already been said it's down to personal preference. I enjoy preparing a loco, shunting to make up a train, after setting signals, running, shunting at a wayside stop, to finally arrive at a destination, shunt again, then rest. My locos are all manual control, and will run extremely slowly. Some times I'll only get to run two trains, one before lunch, and one after, but it's all done at slow speed and without time considerations. I find when you run regularly, you get to know each loco, and your line, when lubricators need filling, and boilers need topping up and gas too. In the time it takes for a chosen loco to raise steam, my battery loco has brought the rolling stock down to Leawarra, and positioned any stock for wayside shunting. I've had days when I don't leave Leawarra yard, just tootle around, shunting and enjoying the steam and oil smells. It's all about steam for me and trying to replicate a REAL scene.
Grant.

So, you seem to have combined the satisfaction gained from running live steam locos with operating a railway realistically.

Just out of interest, is your battery loco diesel or live steam outline? You can see where I'm going with this.

Rik

[Big Jim]

What I've still not been able to pin down is why many 16 millers would not contemplate running a battery powered steam outline loco.

Ahhh, now that is something I have been thinking about. I think it may have something to do with a perceived idea that if it is in the garden and it looks like a steam engine then it should be a steam engine. Now I used to think this way until I saw some of the models built by people like your self and Mr. Butler. For me this may stem from the fact that it is easier to get a i/c model to look like the real thing in 16mm scale than it is a steam engine. Many small i/c engines are boxes on wheels and it is a more straightforward thing to build as you don't have to worry about valve gear and other moving parts.
I do wonder if the attraction for many people who build a garden line is the fact that they can have live steam. This was what got me into it, when I saw my first Live steam NG loco years ago that was the attraction, if I wanted electrically powered locos I could stay indoors.
There is also the possibility that the market is geared more towards battery i/c rather than battery powered steam. Until PDF models started bringing out their range there were very few suppliers who produced kits that were steam outline. However, there were lots of companies, large and small who would sell you bits to built an i/c loco.

[ge_rik]

Could it be that there are still many people who have had a bad experience with the hassle of track power? They may not realize how practical battery electric R/C can be. Your many posts and videos may help to change that. As far as I know PDF models have sold a fair few of their steam outline locos, so perhaps we are about to see more of them being run in the future?

I built a mock-up of a Cracker in 7/8ths scale and actually plan to power it with an electric motor. It's laser cut from plywood and Polybak so cheap as chips to build.

Maybe that's behind the apparent prejudice. I think there's also a fair bit of concern and some lack of knowledge about battery technology. Scare stories about lithium batteries exploding have maybe added to that. Interesting to see if the PDF effect does have an impact on what appears at 16mm steam ups

Rik

[tom_tom_go]

Since getting into the garden and running live steam I find any electric mouse pretending to be something it is not does not interest me. Even my own attempt at an electric diesel with lights and sound is soulless.

However, I also don't find a live steamer running at an unrealistic speed chasing it's tail interesting either.

With my discovery of the SSP Slomo and mucking about with magnetic uncoupling I have achieved the benefits of a slow running DCC loco with a real live steamer be it gas or coal fired.

My two pence...

[LNR]

Just out of interest, is your battery loco diesel or live steam outline?

It's petrol mechanical in outline Rik.
Grant.

[laalratty]

Must admit for me the idea of having a steam outline battery loco has just not appealed, and that even the best, mostly finely detailed 16mm steam outline is still missing something. Real steam locos share the characteristics of the prototype, of taking an amount of skill to perform its best. A steam outline battery doesn't have that, it is switch on and go and if you are representing switch on and go in a scale that you can have a real steam loco, then you might as well have your switch on and go as a diesel. The greatest use my battery locos get is for running the first train to make sure the line is clear, for any stock shunting as required and then towing the stock back at the end of a session and putting it away. I may run a few laps of the track with it as well as a "last train of the day". Doing this, it feels to me like I am running the types of motive power available to me quite realistically.

[Hydrostatic Dazza]

Saturday evening, pack kit bag and tucker box, lay overalls out and pack the car.
3.00am Sunday alarm, , errrrrr.
3.30am into car and drive 90 mins.
Arrive at Loco shed, turn pit lights on etc and sign on and read notices.
Do the checks of loco and toss lighting up timber into the fire box.2 x Diesel soaked rag and a match and toss one midway and one to the front of the grate.



Make cup of tea. Listen to the morning bird song.
See the first morning winter light appear. So nice!



Clean loco and check fire and add more timber. (old sleepers)



Do chores, cleaning and oiling up and chat to shed arrivees and more cups of black tea.



Driver is going his oil up as the boiler is starting to gurgle. 50 psi on the gauge, the coal firing is eased into.
Fireman fills the Hydrostatic lubricator.



The Westinghouse Pump is started, slowly and the pant of the pump is the pulse of the loco coming fully alive.
Whistle out time is approaching, change from overalls to crew kit.



Set the shed the points and the whistle out to couple up to the carriages.
and the onwards for the rest of the day

"Fluffing about". No mate, it is the life, the experience, the whole opera, the smell, the dirt, the heat, the sounds and the people. The drive home has a very content player. A live steam engine or loco of any size has this same emotion, only the scale is different.