Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by IrishPeter » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:50 am

A bit more progress in that the 'back of chimney' area has had the bench work erected. I have ended up planning to put the loco shed and the carriage shed at the back of the chimney as the reach over the board to the site by the turntable proved to be a little too long for me. It is also pretty clear that the goods shed is going to have to go about halfway along the goods siding so it is clear of both the point where I catch incoming trains, and the turntable area. [Reminder to self - buy brown emulsion] :oops:

Seeing the preliminary track layout on the plywood prairie has got me thinking about the what will be needed in terms of signalling. Of course, it would be totally OK not to bother - the Schull and Skibbereen, and the Castlederg and Victoria Bridge both had no fixed signals - but other lines, such as the T&D were a little more generous. The ground frame will probably need six or eight levers, viz:

1 - Loop to main starter
2 - Platform starter
3 - Advance starter (optional)
4 - Main to Loop X-over
5 - Lock on 4 (optional, could assume 4 has an economic FLP)
6 - goods siding
7 - Down to platform line
8 - Down to loop (elevated shunt signal or an "S" arm)

If I go for the more elaborate option, signals 3, 7, & 8 will probably share a post, and that post will delineate the limit of shunt out on to the mainline.

Photos at the weekend - hopefully.

Cheers,
Peter in Va.
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by LNR » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:51 am

This is getting more interesting by the minute!!
Grant.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by IrishPeter » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:04 am

Matt dark brown paint bought, and applied liberally to the bench-work (and remarkably little else) this afternoon whilst the wife etc., were out checking the local antique places for deals. Given a choice between a trip to the mall and a trip to the dentist I usually prefer the dentist, so I opted out! I will probably lay the station area in Code 250 rail, but I am debating whether I should spring for new code 250 point work for the country end of the station. That will run me about five hundred so I am thinking that a modest investment in rail clamps might be more sensible, plus I already have three pairs laying around. Next few days I hope to get an hour here and there to relay the station, and have it sorted before I go further with the bench work.

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by FWLR » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:50 am

Any photo updates Peter. :thumbup:

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by IrishPeter » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:42 am

OK. Progress thus far...
Track 12.jpg
Track 12.jpg (505.98 KiB) Viewed 5802 times
Not the best shot of the rest of the basement, but this was taken from the bottom of the stairs looking towards the end of bench work, which is just at the back of the hot water heater, furnace, etc.. The area available is about 18' by 10'.
Track 2.jpg
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Looking towards the void shown in the previous shot. The roads seen here are (from L to R) the mainline, head shunt, carriage road, and loco shed road. Slight change to the original plan there!
Track 1.jpg
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Reverse shot to the previous one, so the various roads now read from right to left.
Track 7.jpg
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This is looking from the end of the present bench-work towards the position where the first shot was taken. A few vehicles from the 16mm side of things stored in the loco shed road for the time being.
Track 3.jpg
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General view down the station towards the turntable.

End of Part 1.

Peter in Va.
Last edited by IrishPeter on Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by IrishPeter » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:53 am

More of the Gory Details
Track 5.jpg
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Looking from roughly the eventual position of the cattle dock towards the turntable. The roads from L to R are good siding, engine release, and platform line. The area at the back, where the overhead light is plugged in will eventually contain the station building and a row of commercial premises which will include the Railway Bar, also know as Maggie's, or the Buffer and Hook.
Track 6.jpg
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Looking the other way towards the site of the signal box and the "country end" of the station. The loco shed and the probably the usual Irish open sided carriage shed will occupy the two sidings on the right.
Track 4.jpg
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Our old friend the little black diesel, and a 16mm scale wagon awaiting their next job, just about where the goods shed will stand, eventually. The LBD really needs to be converted to AWD to be useful on the S&CT&LR as when the unpowered wheels are leading they tend to pick up the frogs of facing points and derail.
Track 9.jpg
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The turntable area.
Track 8.jpg
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Looking from behind the signal box towards the turntable. The coach on the centre road is a 16mm vaguely Norwegian job of the Nesttun-Osbanen type. The wagon behind it is an ore wagon which still, two years on, needs it inverted V shaped bottom putting in.
Track 11.jpg
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The Vossebanen coach, probably 1:22.3 scale, which needs some repairs after a somewhat traumatic trip from AZ. The original was built in the late 1870s for the 3'6" gauge sections of NSB and operated until the 1940s. Two of the type, one a third open (Co), the other a second/third composite (BCo) survive at Grovane on the Setesdalbanen. The carriage body is parked where the signal box will eventually be located.

That's it for now...

Peter in Va.
Last edited by IrishPeter on Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by FWLR » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:39 am

Impressive area there Peter, 18’ x 10’ Basement wow, i know a few N Gauge guys who would love that space. Love you locos too, very nice. :thumbup:

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by Big Jim » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:46 am

After seeing this I am looking at my garage in a new light, very impressive.
Just a thought regarding the LBD, could the back to back be slightly out,thus causing the lack of surefooted progress?
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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by ge_rik » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:17 am

Really great to have so much indoor space. Must be reassuring to know you can get things done regardless of the weather.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by IrishPeter » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:37 pm

Big Jim wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:46 am After seeing this I am looking at my garage in a new light, very impressive.
Just a thought regarding the LBD, could the back to back be slightly out,thus causing the lack of surefooted progress?
Over or under? I stuck the ruler across it the other day and the B2B was 41mm; the powered end is 40mm. I am half convinced that the 41mm end is 1mm over what it should be, but an attempt to nip up the back to backs ended in failure as I would need to reset the axle bushes to get that dimension, which is more than a five minute job.

The space we have down there is considerable. The main basement is 19' by 27', and then there is an annex 13' by 14' so I make it about 714 sq. ft.. I have lived in houses that size. The 13' x 14' is basically "Herself's" storage area, and the central heating boiler, etc., occupies the middle of the large side, which creates a minor difficulty in that we need to maintain easy access to the boiler and the water heater. Amusingly, the fire irons from the days when the central heating was coal fired are still down there!

Yes, it is lovely having all that indoor space, but honestly, I liked being outdoors better. I am still playing with the idea of both an indoor and an outdoor line. The former for winter and summer, the latter for spring and autumn.

Cheers,
Peter in Va.
Last edited by IrishPeter on Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by Big Jim » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:58 pm

I am not really up on 45mm gauge stuff. Perhaps others on here will know the answer.
However, if one is 40mm and works, the other is 41mm and has issues then it suggests that this could be a cause.
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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by GTB » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:23 pm

IrishPeter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:53 am The LBD really needs to be converted to AWD to be useful on the S&CT&LR as when the unpowered wheels are leading they tend to pick up the frogs of facing points and derail.
Conversion from 2WD to 4WD won't make any difference to derailments at turnouts if the leading wheels are wide to gauge. It will improve the haulage capability though, so worth doing for that reason.

The nominal back to back on 45mm coarse gauge is 40mm. If it is wider, the turnout check rails can't pull the wheelset over far enough to clear the nose of the v-crossing (frog). The only fix is to take the wheelset out and reset the back to back.

A simple wheel gauge made by filing notches in a piece of ply, or aluminium, is a useful tool for checking wheelsets before installation.

The G1MRA 45mm coarse scale standard is commonly used for SM32/45 narrow gauge and the dimensions are here. The page also includes track standards.

http://www.g1mra.com/pdf/standard-dimen ... gauge1.pdf

The 16mm Association has published it's suggested wheel standards here

http://www.16mm.org.uk/resources/wheel-standards/

Graeme

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by FWLR » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:20 am

IrishPeter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:37 pm
Yes, it is lovely having all that indoor space, but honestly, I liked being outdoors better. I am still playing with the idea of both an indoor and an outdoor line. The former for winter and summer, the latter for spring and autumn.

Cheers,
Peter in Va.
Brilliant plan there Peter. :thumbup:

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by Killian Keane » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:28 pm

I'm getting strong vibes of Schull station going by the track plan, all it needs is an engine shed at the back perpendicular to the running lines coming off the turntable :thumbright:
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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by IrishPeter » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:01 pm

It leans a bit more towards Kilkee at the other end of the station with loco shed, headshunt, and a road for spare carriages all at that end. It is one of my exercises in pastiche in that the combination of elements from Schull, and Kilkee produce a very plausible Skebawn. I used to do this with my OO scale stuff with elements from two or three stations belonging to a company being used to make a very plausible fictional station. I still have Grimsby (New Station) up my sleeve if I give 4mm another go! The LNER were going to replace both Town and Dock in the late 1930s but Hitler's war intervened.

The loco shed perpendicular to the main running line off the turntable was an arrangement that the Schull and Skibbereen lived to regret especially as it was too close to the TT pit for comfort. I think they had to winch one out of the hole a couple of times over the years. The turntable bring effectively the access to the loco release appeared quite a few other places in Ireland - e.g. Harcourt Street, Dublin; Athboy; Western Road, Cork; Skibbereen before the extension of BG line to Baltimore, and Kilybegs! A couple of other termini had the turntable at the buffer stop end of the loco run-round, the two that stick in my head are Kilkee (WCR) and Youghal.

Next job it seems is fettle the B2B on the LBD...

Cheers,
Peter in VA
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by IrishPeter » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:03 pm

After the LBD gets its chassis sorted out, the next project will be a small signal box for Skebawn. Irish railways tended to use the Liverpool based Railway Signalling Co. most often, with MacK and Holland a distant second. I just have to sort out whether I prefer the look of RSC or MacK&H standard boxes. On the other hand, as the terminus would have had a fairly small frame (8 to 14 levers) there may have been just a ground frame hut. Of course, building the box/hut is going to be a different matter, but at least I am building for the indoors section of my railway 'empire' so I don't have to make the thing waterproof. Curranhilty Jct. is going to have to be a box, though as the layout there would probably need around 20 levers.

I should probably build a row of houses/shops including Maggie's Bar where all the intrigue takes place. There is always something to do...

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by Soar Valley Light » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:56 pm

Hi Peter,

I love hearing your accounts of the Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway. It sounds like you've got some interesting projects ahead of you!

RS co installations always have the edge on McK &H in my view. Big boxes of any maunfacturer are always intriguing but I think it's the small boxes that have all the character. What is the difference between a box and a GF........? We could (and may well) debate that one until the cows come home! At the end of the day a big two storey structure can be a GF and a hut at track level can be a box! Most signal boxes house the block instruments - but sometimes they don't!

Aren't definitions wonderful things :mrgreen:

Whatever you choose to build and whatever you call it, I look forward to seeing the results. :thumbright:

All the best,

Andrew
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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by IrishPeter » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:21 pm

Yes, it is a very grey area between Signal Box and ground frame huts. No real problems when it comes to accepting the stand in the rain version as a ground frame, but with the rest it can be a fag paper's thickness of difference. One writer argued that Douglas was a signal cabin and St John's a ground frame on the basis that St John's did not have a telephone (neither did Douglas before 1925), and was not permanently manned, but that applied to many of the Highland Railways' cabins, as did the fact that the single line staff was in the hands of the stationmaster.

Both Manx cabins were singularly interesting, but St John's was probably the more interesting cabin in that it was early (1879/80) with a stone base, a gabled roof, and a relatively small glazed area. I cannot remember how the locking room was accessed though. It was little changed with the original 10 lever Stevens frame serving until the end - 1968. The signals were a mix of slotted posts recycled from the original 1873 station, and Stevens' single spectacle semaphores. Points and signals were interlocked, as it protected the running junction between the Douglas-Peel, and St John's to Ramsey lines, but there were no FPLs. I only saw it once, and by then the scrap men had had the frame, but the rest of the box was intact. St John's "points' box" controlled the east end of St John's, whilst the west end was controlled by a ramshackle collection of levers grouped by the crossing keeper's hut. The only IMR specialty that was missing at that end being the Lindley windless. In later days the west end had slot detectors so you could not pull off the approach signals (home and distant really don't work in this context) if the points were reversed. In later years, another Highland feature was standard - the stationmaster-cum-signalman bicycling between the east and west ends to signal trains through!

Douglas has a Dutton and Co. box of 1892, which is disused but intact. This box has a brick base, and a superstructure that resembles that erected between Dublin and Dundalk for the GNR(I) about the same time. It still retains its original a drink handle frame of 36 levers, of which 30 were in used back in the day. The other equipment was a couple of repeaters for the Peel and Castletown distants, and two phones of 1925 vintage, one for the Peel line omnibus circuit and the other for the South Line circuit. Like Ireland, the distant levers are still green. The normal distant/home/starter division only really applies at Douglas. Elsewhere it is probably more accurate to refer to approach signals on the old IMR sections, as they were usually too far back to be homes, and homes on the ex-Manx Northern, though some of the LC signals were set back. Signal levers are grouped by the station building, but the points are on local handle levers, and are locked by slot detectors when the approach signal is pulled off. Even today IMR signalling is very much in a 1870s time warp, and that even goes for the motor worked semaphores at Douglas which are not true starters. Ironically, the approach signal at Douglas is a colour light, but should be read like an 1870s semaphore!

Back to the S&CT. Skebawn will probably end up with a hut which the directors of the S&CT have dubbed Skebawn Signal Cabin, whilst Curranhilty Jct may well get a small RSCo box like Tooban Jct. on the Swilly, and I may just be whimsical enough to label it "Curranhilty Jct, G.F." :D.

Cheers,
Peter in Va.
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by IrishPeter » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:36 pm

This morning I decided to do some clearance checking around the station, and discovered that I had not left enough space at the back of the board for the carriage shed. This resulted in some reshuffling. The platform road came forwards about 1.5" making about 9" between the sleeper ends and the back wall. The loop came forward by about the same, whilst by narrowing the 6' way from scale 8' to 6'6" I was able to being the goods road forwards by only about 1 inch so there is still room for the goods platform along the front of the layout. I am not completely sure where the carriage points are going to be, but I reckon I need about 6' of siding to accommodate a 4 coach train, so it will be a fairly long run of rodding if I ever do get everything connected up. Mind you, the carriage siding, as an after thought (real life and model,) might have simply been controlled by a ground frame released by a key on the staff, or an Annett's Key that is released when the main to loop crossover and down home, and up starter are normal. Operationally the latter makes better sense.

LBD works a treat now the back to backs have been sorted.

Peter in Va.
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Skebawn and Castleknox Tramway Mk. -erm-

Post by IrishPeter » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:37 pm

I have been stalled for a month. Diocesan synod, an ordination, doctor's appointments, trying to find a new pup (surprisingly difficult here if you don't want a coon hound, pit bull, or a foo-foo dog), and life in general have all got in the way. I have been tired and frustrated enough that I have only been down a time or two for a little tinker and that has been about it. Next goal is getting down to the hardware barn to replenish the wood supply.

However, a very interesting distraction has come along...

We have now had several sharp frosts where the air temperature has got down to -6C to -8C, so the fall die back has occurred. This has revealed the extent of the area at the side of the house that I have earmarked for the outdoor division of my railway empire. The area seems to lend itself to some sort of folded figure of eight or dog-bone plan - given the slope on our garden, probably a miniature Virginia version of the Sargan Eight! One idea I am definitely mulling over is going for 1:22.5 scale on 32mm track to give a fair representation of "two-foot-six" gauge for the outdoor line. In recent years, say since about 2009, I have been definitely interested in both Irish NG and Calthrop's ideas about two-foot-six gauge light railways, so the thinking is that the more detailed hand-built Irish line can be inside, whereas the 2'6" line can go outside where kit-bashed plastic would stand up better.

Does that sound like a plan?

Cheers,
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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