Printer bed materials

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philipy
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Printer bed materials

Post by philipy » Sun May 29, 2022 11:26 am

I'm generally very happy with my Creality CR20 Pro, but I'm not totally convinced by the flexible magnetic bed. Don't get me wrong, it is working perfectly, everything sticks to it ( so far!) and it is easy to peel the prints off. However what is less good is removing the thin residual skirt and the initial test strips. Being only one layer thick they are too thin to be able to grab and peel off but thick enough for the nozzle to drag on them if it passes over when doing the next print.

So I'm wondering about using glass instead and I'm after thoughts and suggestions on use, cleaning, etc.
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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by ge_rik » Sun May 29, 2022 11:41 am

I use glass beds on both my printers. The larger Eryone printer's bed had a series of black dots printed across its surface which helped with adhesion for a month or so but now I've flipped it over and use the plain side with a thin layer of Pritt. I seldom have adhesion problems.

My cheapo Anet A8 clone came with an aluminium bed with instructions to apply masking tape to its surface. I had mixed success with the masking tape - sometimes ok, sometimes useless. In the end I replaced it with a glass bed and Pritt. Although the Anet's bed was supposed to be heated, the element was so weedy it rarely got above skin temperature but even then I seldom had adhesion problems with the glass and Pritt. I've now treated it to a proper heated bed but still use Pritt on it.

I know some manage without Pritt. Whenever I try that (usually because I've forgotten to renew the Pritt), I very rarely get away with it. So no idea how others manage without Pritt - unless they rack up the bed temperature - mine are both set at 60C even though I know they would work without it.

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by -steves- » Sun May 29, 2022 11:43 am

I must admit I use glass on all my FDM printers now as it gives, by far, the best finish on the first layer. I swapped them out from flexible plates as they left quite a rough first layer, despite sticking to it really well. I use 3DLAC Plus now to give a very powerful adhesion, often a little too powerful and a scraper is required to remove them. Something like the picture below.

As Rik posted while I was posting, I have to say I agree with him, I rarely get away without some sort of "glue" in a glass bed, it's not worth me trying without anymore, especially on large flat prints. I would personally avoid Pritt though. I used it successfully for quite sometime. It should be noted though that the layers do build up unless you wash it off every time, which is a PITA in itself, but also can give a very rough first later as it builds up. 3DLAC, does not do this and is brilliant, though expensive, but worth it IMHO. :thumbup:
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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by philipy » Sun May 29, 2022 12:51 pm

Thanks chaps.

I really don't want to go the Pritt route, I used to use that on my Qidi when I first got it and eventually it did build up however much I cleaned it, and the bottom of the print was always pitted and they got more and more difficult to remove. So I gave it up. then tried blue painters tape, which gave mixed results and then I went back to a plain bed at 60 deg initial layer dropping back to 50deg for the main print and had no adhesion probs.

How do you get the print off the glass without scratching it, though?
Also, I've seen 3mm, 4mm and 5mm thick glass. Obviously the thicker the glass the slower it will be to reach temp and the longer it will take to cool, but otoh the thinner it is the more fragile it will be. Thoughts?
How do you know when the glass bed has reached temp?

Did you use 'official' Creality glass, or whatever was going, on Amazon/Fleabay?

I note the Stanley scraper Steve, that looks very good, never seen one before. I used to use a Stanley knife blade held almost flat to get prints off the Qidi, this would have been a lot easier ( and less dangerous!).
Philip

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by -steves- » Sun May 29, 2022 2:12 pm

philipy wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 12:51 pm Thanks chaps.

How do you get the print off the glass without scratching it, though?
Also, I've seen 3mm, 4mm and 5mm thick glass. Obviously the thicker the glass the slower it will be to reach temp and the longer it will take to cool, but otoh the thinner it is the more fragile it will be. Thoughts?
How do you know when the glass bed has reached temp?

Did you use 'official' Creality glass, or whatever was going, on Amazon/Fleabay?

I note the Stanley scraper Steve, that looks very good, never seen one before. I used to use a Stanley knife blade held almost flat to get prints off the Qidi, this would have been a lot easier ( and less dangerous!).
Glass is actually very very difficult to scratch with a scraper such as the one above or similar. I have tried, many times and never managed to make a scratch on them as yet let alone break one and honestly I have given it significant force, more than I would if I thought about it while doing it. I use the official Creality glass (from Amazon), simply because it does the job exceedingly well so I don't see the point in changing it. What I would say is never try to get the print off before the glass has completely cooled and feels cold to the touch, it is extremely well attached and you will end up taking the extra adhesive layer off the Creality glass. I have done that a couple of times now and have managed to make a couple of annoying holes in it, I have since replaced the bed as they are not all that expensive in the grand scheme of things and am just more patient in taking the prints off.

I still use Octoprint and I find this very handy for heat details and how long it's taken to cool etc, highly recommended, and it gives me wireless printing with an optional camera to view it, very cool :thumbup:
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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by philipy » Sun May 29, 2022 2:28 pm

-steves- wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 2:12 pm What I would say is never try to get the print off before the glass has completely cooled and feels cold to the touch, it is extremely well attached and you will end up taking the extra adhesive layer off the Creality glass.
Yep, I've seen that said in other places as well. Presumably you have 2 or 3 ( or more) plates so that you can swap them and carry on printing whilst it cools?
-steves- wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 2:12 pm I still use Octoprint and I find this very handy for heat details and how long it's taken to cool etc, highly recommended, and it gives me wireless printing with an optional camera to view it, very cool :thumbup:
Yes, I'm using Octoprint and a camera, but presumably it only shows the temperature at the heating plate, so it will tell you about cooling but not about the surface temp of the glass?
In fact I'm just in the middle of printing a new mounting for the camera with built in LEDs. The bright red BLTouch blinds the camera so I'm painting it black.
Philip

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by ge_rik » Sun May 29, 2022 2:39 pm

I scrape off the prints and the old Pritt with a broad-bladed chisel. I've not noticed any scoring or scratching of the glass. As it's heat resistant, it's quite tough.

There is a very slight unevenness on the lower surfaces of the print, but I don't think it's obtrusive. This is the print bed side of a 7mm scale chassis (with five-layer brim) I've just printed. As you can see, to my mind, it's fairly smooth.
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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by metalmuncher » Sun May 29, 2022 3:41 pm

I use these relatively cheap bed stickers off Amazon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07CVT79TG/

Work well for me in PLA and PETG. Don't use ABS/ASA so not sure how good they are for that. Don't need to use any treatment, just print straight onto the heated sticker, after wiping any dust off if I haven't used it for a while. I have used them both directly on the aluminium heated bed and on a glass sheet clipped to the heated bed. I find the adhesion is better than just clean glass.

The main wear I've had is due to the sticker peeling a bit and forming a bubble when a print has stuck too well, but they last me many months otherwise. I use a knife to pry off the print and flick off the skirt/prime line.

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by Trevor Thompson » Mon May 30, 2022 3:29 pm

metalmuncher wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 3:41 pm I use these relatively cheap bed stickers off Amazon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07CVT79TG/

Work well for me in PLA and PETG. Don't use ABS/ASA so not sure how good they are for that. Don't need to use any treatment, just print straight onto the heated sticker, after wiping any dust off if I haven't used it for a while. I have used them both directly on the aluminium heated bed and on a glass sheet clipped to the heated bed. I find the adhesion is better than just clean glass.

The main wear I've had is due to the sticker peeling a bit and forming a bubble when a print has stuck too well, but they last me many months otherwise. I use a knife to pry off the print and flick off the skirt/prime line.
I have had disappointing results from some of the cheap bed stickers with ABS so I only use the manufacturers own (£10 for 5 last time I bought them). Fitting bed stickers requires care. The old adhesive is difficult to remove and they have to be applied very carefully to avoid trapping air bubbles underneath. As most of you realise I rarely use anything but ABS. I did once try pritt but it didn't work for me at all for ABS - probably because of the 100 degree bed temperature.

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by philipy » Mon May 30, 2022 4:08 pm

Thanks guys.
The Yotino stickers look as though they could be similar to the bed stickers that the Qidi uses. It says they use a 3M adhesive, which the Qidi certainly uses.No way of knowing if it is the same one of course, but if it is, it comes off fairly easily with white spirit.
Come to think of it, I still have a spare Quidi one somewhere, so I might give it a try. It's different dims but should be Ok as long as I'm only printing small items and position them correctly.
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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by BorisSpencer » Tue May 31, 2022 7:38 am

ge_rik wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 11:41 am I know some manage without Pritt. Whenever I try that (usually because I've forgotten to renew the Pritt), I very rarely get away with it. So no idea how others manage without Pritt - unless they rack up the bed temperature - mine are both set at 60C even though I know they would work without it.

Rik
Glass bed with hairspray, the hairspray does build up over time, so every so often gets a thorough scraping and clean with Iso-Propyl.

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by ge_rik » Tue May 31, 2022 8:17 am

I might give hairspray a try. Probably gives a smoother surface than Pritt

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by -steves- » Tue May 31, 2022 8:53 am

People's, if you can afford £8.99 from Amazon, get some 3DLac Plus and give it a go, I know, it's a lot of money for glue, but I use nothing else. I print a lot and I only clean the build plate about once in 6 months or so. You don't need to put much on but I use it for every print. The bigger the print, the less the build up, but the build up is super slow as the most of it just evaporates off. If you like it it's around £32 for 5 bottles which is how I buy it. I am not affiliated, nor do I get any bonus from this, I say it simply because it's true and I have tried just about everything in the past, except gloop, never tried that stuff :D

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adhesive-Print ... C81&sr=8-1

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by philipy » Tue May 31, 2022 10:12 am

A glass bed arrived yesterday from Amazon and the 3DLAC Plus is on its way to try.
Interestingly, it says "Material: ABS (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene) ", so presumably it is a thin solution of ABS in some solvent... which if my memory serves is what Trevor says he uses, by dissolving scrap ABS?
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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by GTB » Tue May 31, 2022 2:52 pm

philipy wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 10:12 am Interestingly, it says "Material: ABS (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene) ", so presumably it is a thin solution of ABS in some solvent...
Even more interestingly, the MSDS from the manufacturer of 3DLAC PLUS states the composition is a PVP/PVA co polymer dissolved in iso-propanol. Which makes it chemically similar to a glue stick thinned down with a solvent.

No idea how Amazon came up with it being ABS, but I think I'd trust a manufacturers original MSDS more than I would Amazon.

It looks like a pump pack, so I guess it's optimised to get a thinner and more even layer of adhesive than you could ever get by rubbing a glue stick across a glass plate.

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by -steves- » Tue May 31, 2022 5:05 pm

GTB wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:52 pm
philipy wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 10:12 am Interestingly, it says "Material: ABS (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene) ", so presumably it is a thin solution of ABS in some solvent...
Even more interestingly, the MSDS from the manufacturer of 3DLAC PLUS states the composition is a PVP/PVA co polymer dissolved in iso-propanol. Which makes it chemically similar to a glue stick thinned down with a solvent.

No idea how Amazon came up with it being ABS, but I think I'd trust a manufacturers original MSDS more than I would Amazon.

It looks like a pump pack, so I guess it's optimised to get a thinner and more even layer of adhesive than you could ever get by rubbing a glue stick across a glass plate.

Graeme
Indeed, it atomizes really well in a very fine mist and no shock there is iso-propanol in there, it gives quite a kick to the nose if you get close to the plate after spraying. I have a load of "isop" from resin cleaning, maybe I could mix some glue in there and make my own, lol :lol: :thumbup:
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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by ge_rik » Tue May 31, 2022 6:43 pm

Fascinating info. I wonder what would happen if I thinned some Pritt with isopropyl alcohol and painted it on......

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by GTB » Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:01 am

-steves- wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 5:05 pm I have a load of "isop" from resin cleaning, maybe I could mix some glue in there and make my own,
No idea, the only way to find out is to do the experiment......

There's supposed to be about 2% polymer in there, but there may be other components that aren't mentioned, as there's no legal requirement to list non-hazardous substances in an MSDS.

What the MSDS info does suggest is that it might be easier to remove residual 3DLAC (or Pritt for that matter) from the plate by wiping down with isopropanol, rather than scraping away with a paint scraper.

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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by ge_rik » Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:12 pm

ge_rik wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 8:17 am I might give hairspray a try. Probably gives a smoother surface than Pritt

Rik
Well! What a revelation! I bought a really cheap aerosol can of hairspray from my local cheapo shop (£1.49 for 450ml) and applied a very light layer to the glass beds of both my printers and, with some trepidation, tried some prints - two large rectangular parts (sides and ends of a van), two very long and narrow parts which were only 10mm short of the width of my smaller print bed (solebars for the van) a couple of small parts (brake gear for the van) and a tall part with a narrow base (half the roof printed end-on). They all stuck with absolutely no curling at the corners or ends. In fact, even after the beds had cooled I had the chisel them off. And the undersides were as smooth as babies' botties!

So, thanks. Hairspray is my go to bed adhesive from now on!

Rik
PS It has the added advantage of making the workshop smell suspiciously like a tart's boudoir..... :lol:
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Re: Printer bed materials

Post by philipy » Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:42 pm

Very interesting Rik, I must remember that for the future.

I've made some small progress myself. Finally got around to installing my new glass bed this morning and did one small test print without any sort of adhesion assistance and it worked perfectly, just on the surface of the glass.
I have a can of 3DLac sitting waiting but won't try it until I get a problem without.
Philip

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