Printing thin resin sheets - NEW PROBLEM - finished

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philipy
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Printing thin resin sheets - NEW PROBLEM - finished

Post by philipy » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:50 am

I have a problem which is driving me nuts and I'd welcome any thoughts?

On the original photo's of my contractors loco, the roof appears to be pretty beaten up, but that shows the edges of iron/steel sheets which were bolted to the frame. So as an experiment I thought I would try to replicate them as an add on.
I started by drawing up a thin sheet, with added bolt heads, at 73.5 x 40 x 0.54mm, and printed one on my filament printer. It worked surprisingly well but the surface finish wasn't nearly good enough to use and the bolts make it effectively impossible to smooth down acceptably. I should emphasise at this point that the sheets are drawn at only 0.54mm thick, and this allows exactly three filament layers at 0.18mm before it starts on the bolt heads.

Anyway, since I had some success resin printing the flat side sheets I thought I'd give it a go with these. I used exactly the same stl but put it through Chitubox to get the sliced file for the resin printer. That appeared to be fine and it printed the sheet perfectly, but most of the bolts were missing with just a few at the corners and along one short side. So I made a rude noise and tried again, with much the same result. I checked, rechecked, redrew and started from scratch, increased the bolt size, ran it through various solid checkers/repairers, all day yesterday. I think I now have about a dozen, semi-boltless sheets in stock! The drawing shows as perfect with no errors and everything manifold, but it will not print the bolts repeatably and it isn't always the same ones that print or don't print.
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The printer settings are the default ones, I've never changed them because they've always worked ok so far.
I have used three different resins, including a brand new one delivered last week that I opened just for this.

The only thing I can think of, clutching at straws, is that the suction created by this relatively large flat plate when the build plate lifts is enough to dislodge the embryonic bolt heads. Does that sound feasible and are there any suggestions or cures?
Philip

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by -steves- » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:14 am

You could try printing it on it's side with support added or you could try at an angle with support added.

I was having similar issues printing a 0.5mm grill for the front of a Hunslet diesel. It took many attempts to find the right position so it would print properly, a bit hit and miss to be honest.

Also try not to print flat sheets directly to the build plats as they will always be bigger than what you wanted as the first couple of layers always go "elephant feet" looking. I found this initially with name plates, but the same happens an anything thin and flat.

Best of luck :thumbup:
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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:15 am

philipy wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:50 am The only thing I can think of, clutching at straws, is that the suction created by this relatively large flat plate when the build plate lifts is enough to dislodge the embryonic bolt heads. Does that sound feasible and are there any suggestions or cures?
That does sound feasible. If it wasn't so thin, I'd suggest printing it vertically to test out the theory. Can't think of anything else, I'm afraid.

Rik
Edit. I see Steve has just beaten me to it
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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by philipy » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:19 am

Thanks steve,
Yes, I did think of trying at an angle etc, but didn't really want to go that route for a couple of reasons. One, because you always end up with layer lines, even if very small and, two, because I've had a problem with the layer attached to the supports 'bellying'.
I'm not worried about the elephants foot effect in this instance, it could even be an advantage in getting the visible edges very thin!
Philip

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by -steves- » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:26 am

philipy wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:19 am Thanks steve,
Yes, I did think of trying at an angle etc, but didn't really want to go that route for a couple of reasons. One, because you always end up with layer lines, even if very small and, two, because I've had a problem with the layer attached to the supports 'bellying'.
I'm not worried about the elephants foot effect in this instance, it could even be an advantage in getting the visible edges very thin!
That's odd, I do not get print lines at all when printing at an angle, the part is always ultra smooth no matter what angle it's printed at.

I understand the support issue, when adding support have a look underneath the print and add manual support where ever you think may be necessary, I had to do this on the Hunslet grill. I would shy away from printing sheet at 90 degrees as it only adds support underneath and then it gets very flimsy and wobbly for the higher layers though you can add "tree" support to negate that if need be.
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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by Peter Butler » Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:55 am

I don't have a 3D printer but I have been following this (and all other 3D threads) and been both amazed at the ability to print intricate machinery parts, which would be difficult to produce any other way, whilst at the same time wondering why 'Printerers' (new word!) beat themselves up trying to make flat sheets when alternatives are readily available?
Surely it is easier, and probably cheaper after reading of the wasted time and materials, to simply use HIP and stick-on bolt heads?
Perhaps Rik could do another 'Why do we do it' poll to see why individuals attempt the impossible?
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by philipy » Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:50 am

Peter Butler wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:55 am
Surely it is easier, and probably cheaper after reading of the wasted time and materials, to simply use HIP and stick-on bolt heads?
Why do people climb Everest?... Because it's there! :lol:
Like everything, you don'tknow something won't work until you try it and then there is an " I won't let the #$@#% thing beat me", effect that kicks in. :lol:
Seriously, if you saw the small boiler fittings that I posted a week or so ago, you'll know that small bits are perfectly possible and I've printed bolts on flat sheets before, so I don't understand what the problem is this time.
If it had worked the way I expected it to, it would have been less than 1/2hour drawing time, plus 3 x15minutes printing, giving three roof sheets complete for less than a quid in a couple of hours.
Philip

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by SimonWood » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:55 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:55 am Surely it is easier, and probably cheaper after reading of the wasted time and materials, to simply use HIP and stick-on bolt heads?
This is a great question! I sometimes wonder this to myself, when I think about the amount of time I have spent fiddling with 3D drawings and prints compared to what I have successfully completed (which is far less than most of the other 3D printers on this forum!)

I do agree with Philip's 'because it's there' and there's also a fun problem solving aspect to it - as there is with lots of other approaches to modelling. But I think there's also a 'velco' effect, where testing the limits of the technology can help you find new uses (such as velcro being very convenient for astronauts in zero gravity, as well as keeping my coat fastened). We're not just beating ourselves up to get the immediate output we're after but also with an eye for other applications that it would open up if we can make that break-through with whatever we're wrangling with.

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by philipy » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:59 pm

Totally agree Simon. As I've said a number of times before, I treat most things as part of the learning curve. That's why I have done odd print jobs for other members in the past, because I almost always learn something from whatever it is. Either in the drawing or the printing.
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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by -steves- » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:01 pm

I made some name plates which are just 1.5mm thick at max and a grill at 0.5mm. Both have fine detail which would not be possible to do it any other way. Just ignore the really crappy paintwork, it reacted. :thumbup:

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The buck stops here .......

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by philipy » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:53 pm

Thanks Steve, those plates are beautiful.

I had to go out earlier, so just before I went I just had time to set one of my sheets to print vertically on edge. When I came back it had done exactly as you suggested and I had a thin line stuck to the bottom of the tank and another one stuck to the build plate, but nothing in between!

So, now it is halfway through trying one at 45 degrees. Watch this space!
Philip

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by Trevor Thompson » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:10 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:55 am I don't have a 3D printer but I have been following this (and all other 3D threads) and been both amazed at the ability to print intricate machinery parts, which would be difficult to produce any other way, whilst at the same time wondering why 'Printerers' (new word!) beat themselves up trying to make flat sheets when alternatives are readily available?
Surely it is easier, and probably cheaper after reading of the wasted time and materials, to simply use HIP and stick-on bolt heads?
Perhaps Rik could do another 'Why do we do it' poll to see why individuals attempt the impossible?
Peter

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by Andrew » Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:29 am

-steves- wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:01 pm I made some name plates which are just 1.5mm thick at max and a grill at 0.5mm. Both have fine detail which would not be possible to do it any other way.
Those are VERY impressive! The grill and Hunslet lettering are just fantastic...

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by Lonsdaler » Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:04 am

Peter Butler wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:55 am I don't have a 3D printer but I have been following this (and all other 3D threads) and been both amazed at the ability to print intricate machinery parts, which would be difficult to produce any other way, whilst at the same time wondering why 'Printerers' (new word!) beat themselves up trying to make flat sheets when alternatives are readily available?
Surely it is easier, and probably cheaper after reading of the wasted time and materials, to simply use HIP and stick-on bolt heads?
Perhaps Rik could do another 'Why do we do it' poll to see why individuals attempt the impossible?
Whilst acknowledging the 'counterpoint views' given above, I have to say that I understand Peter's point about this. Perhaps it's because I also am not a 3d 'printerer' (now used twice - it's become a thing😅) but I wouldn't expect a metal worker who makes castings to cast a flat sheet of steel - they would make or purchase a sheet of steel for the job in hand.
I'm not suggesting that 3d printers don't have their place, and those forum members using them have certainly demonstrated how versatile they are, but there does seem to be a determination to use that tool for everything. Just maybe, for some things, there is a more appropriate tool or material?
Just my two penn'orth, and not looking for an argument or to cause offence.
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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by ge_rik » Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:02 pm

As a 3D printerer, I have a foot in both camps. I will combine plasticard with 3Dvprinting where I feel it's more appropriate. As it happens, I have done this for roofs of locos, coaches and vans. But I have also 3D printed roofs as well. With something as thin as this, I would be inclined to use plasticard.

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by philipy » Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:54 pm

ge_rik wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:02 pm With something as thin as this, I would be inclined to use plasticard.
I totally understand and if I'd known it would be this much of a pain I'd have gone that route myself.
The stupid thing is that the 0.5mm thick ( thin?) sheet is printing perfectly, but the bolt detail isn't. I've just printed a 0.5mm thick small plate 4mm x 10mm with 1mm diam x 0.75 mm high rivets and it is absolutely perfect. I then tried again with yet another redrawn roof sheet 74 x 40mm with the same sized rivets, the sheet is perfect but I only have half a dozen of the 30 odd rivets that should be there! :roll: :dontknow:

BTW, I've redone the levelling and zeroing again this morning and that seems to have fixed the 'stick to the bottom not the plate', problem.
Philip

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by philipy » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:07 pm

This is driving me nuts and I think I'll have to give it up.

I have previously used the SketchUp array tool to run the bolts round the sheet and it crossed my mind that somehow that might be the problem. So I've redone it, inserting the bolts one by one by hand. It also crossed my mind that the number of bolts might be somehow part of the problem, so I cut the sheet in half. I then added the small rivetted plate which sits beside the coal hole. Both items are 0.5mm thick and the rivets on both are 1mm diameter and 0.75mm high. this is the result, still on the printer plate, with the drawing alongside. The sheet has printed perfectly, as usual, but half the rivets are missing in a pretty random way. The plate is perfect.

I am completely stumped. Cannot begin to imagine what else to try?
Screenshot 2022-01-26 14.52.30.png
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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by metalmuncher » Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:48 pm

Do you have some way to view the individual layers the slicer is creating? Maybe run the print without resin and see if the LCD mask shows the correct bolt pattern at the right time in the print? If the LCD is showing the the bolts, you know its some kind of printing problem, if the mask is also missing bolts you know its a model or slicing problem.

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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by philipy » Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:28 pm

The LCD on the machine shows the layers as it prints them and although I haven't sat down and watched every single layer, I have seen it showing all of the individual dots as it goes through the final half a dozen or so layers. They just don't appear on the actual print.
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Re: Printing thin resin sheets

Post by metalmuncher » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:00 pm

Well, that at least rules out problems with the slicer or model, it seems the machine can't reproduce what is being asked of it. I don't have any experience with resin printers, so I can't be of much use on that front. I know some printers peel each layer off the resin vat film, I wonder if some of the bolts are sticking to the film better than the already printed part. Don't know what knobs you can turn to try and help that if it is the problem - more curing time for the bolt layers? Slower Z axis movement to make the peel less violent?

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