PLA curling at the nozzle

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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by ge_rik » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:26 am

Are you sure the printhead is only a sheet of paper's width from the bed? I got hit and miss first layer problems like yours when I first set up my cheapo printer. Eventually I found the bed was distorted and so no matter how hard I tried to level it, there was always one corner which was either too close or too far from the head. Adding a glass bed helped, but I still get occasional problems with first layer adhesion.

Philip and I both make fine adjustments sometimes to the levelling screws while the head is making its first few passes of the brim. Rubbing your finger lightly from side to side over the deposited filament soon shows if it is sticking to the bed. If it isn't, loosen off the screw on the nearest corner.

Some people suggest the first layer should be slightly squished on the bed - ie closer than a paper' s width. Better a bit too close than a bit too far.

The All3DP website suggests these as the ideal settings for the Ender 3

Printing temperature: 200 °C
Bed temperature: 60 °C
Speed: 50 mm/s ( though lower down it suggests 60mm/s)
Layer height: 0.12 mm
Retraction: 6 mm @ 25 mm/s
Infill: 20%
Initial layer speed: 20 mm/s
Initial fan speed: 0%

As the article says, try starting with these settings and then tweaking one at a time to see what seems to be making the difference.
https://all3dp.com/2/ender-3-cura-setti ... a-profile/

Rik
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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by GAP » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:29 pm

What a difference a day makes.
I changed 2 things at the same time (against my technician logical fault finding training) and got 3 successful prints one after the other.
1. I redid the bed levelling again but this time I pushed the paper under the nozzle after auto homing and used that feeling as my guide for the 4 corners of the bed when levelling again.
2. I changed the PLA from the "flash forge" brand to the "creality" brand and the first item (bogie centre) print went well, after that was finished and not changing anything I successfully printed 2 other items (bogie side) and again success.

The next thing I did was import the bogie centre and 2 bogie sides files into tinkercad and converted them into .stl files, followed by slicing them to get a G Code file.
Into the printer the new file went and it started to print well, about 50%, then all of a sudden the printer had a hissy fit and just randomly printed layers all over the place.
The only thing that I can put this hissy fit down to, is the fact the filament got tangled around the Z axis drive screw and was tight as a guitar string when I found it.
I did pause the print and pull the misprinted filament away but that did not work and it just misprinted again.
I am guessing that as I pulled some of the filament way I now had a nozzle height to the print level issue.

Another attempt will be made tomorrow (its 9.30pm now).
Might re slice the .stl file before I start.
All in all I am making progress albeit with baby steps.
Graeme
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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by ge_rik » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:28 pm

GAP wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:29 pm.
1. I redid the bed levelling again but this time I pushed the paper under the nozzle after auto homing and used that feeling as my guide for the 4 corners of the bed when levelling again.
Aha! That might be significant. You must always autohome before levelling otherwise the Z axis might not be at zero..... Also, it does sound as if the filament you've been using isn't the best.

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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by GAP » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:45 am

Another attempt and another fail.
Re-checked the auto home and levelling and it was way out again.
A BL touch is now a serious consideration, after I change the springs because when levelling there does not seem to be any tension on the springs at all.
Graeme
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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by ge_rik » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:54 am

GAP wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:45 am Another attempt and another fail.
Re-checked the auto home and levelling and it was way out again.
A BL touch is now a serious consideration, after I change the springs because when levelling there does not seem to be any tension on the springs at all.
It does sound as if your bed adjustment screws aren't tight enough meaning they undo themselves while printing. Earlier on, Steve suggested tightening the bed screws down as tight as possible to compress the springs fully, then slackening them off a few turns before setting the Z stop. It might be worth giving that a try.

Rik
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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by GAP » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:19 pm

ge_rik wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:54 am
GAP wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:45 am Another attempt and another fail.
Re-checked the auto home and levelling and it was way out again.
A BL touch is now a serious consideration, after I change the springs because when levelling there does not seem to be any tension on the springs at all.
It does sound as if your bed adjustment screws aren't tight enough meaning they undo themselves while printing. Earlier on, Steve suggested tightening the bed screws down as tight as possible to compress the springs fully, then slackening them off a few turns before setting the Z stop. It might be worth giving that a try.

Rik
I bought some stronger springs that are claimed to overcome a weakness in the original springs that lets the adjustment wheels to move while printing.
How to fit them video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Ku8vZD9_g

When I went to the local Jaycar to buy my first roll of filament I noticed that they had a Creality dual filament printer on display and it had the recommended fitted.
I can only surmise that the springs came factory fitted so perhaps Creality is fitting them to their up market printers but not their "budget" printers.
I have noticed that even when I fully compress the springs after a few turns a couple of the wheels do not have as much tension on them as the others.
I'll try the spring replacement first then if that does not improve things it will on to the BL touch although I have heard mixed reviews about them.

I am now at the point where I am regretting buying this printer instead of the CR6SE that I originally looked at (auto levelling as a feature).
Graeme
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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by ge_rik » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:39 pm

I think, once you get the springs/bed levelling problem sorted out, you'll not need the BL Touch. I now very rarely touch the bed levelling screws on either of my printers and even then it may only be an occasional tweak (as I said above - while it's printing the brim).

You seem to have been very unlucky with your printer. Creality is considered to be one of the best printers for beginners and certainly should have been a heck of a lot easier to set up than my cheapo £80 printer - which has had its moments!

Rik
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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by Trevor Thompson » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:50 pm

Im pleased to hear that you are making headway.

Well done!

Trevor

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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by -steves- » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:57 pm

GAP wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:19 pm
I am now at the point where I am regretting buying this printer instead of the CR6SE that I originally looked at (auto levelling as a feature).
Don't think for one second that auto levelling will fix everything, it won't. Even with auto levelling, with a BLTouch you still have to set the z offset manually which I have found is much harder to nail than actually levelling the bed, which these days I can almost do with my eyes shut and rely on the tension pull on the paper. There is also the fact that from the 4 printers I have, the auto levelling only works properly on 2 of them, the other 2 I now set manually as it is more accurate :shock: Strange but true. :oops:

Your Ender 3 is a very highly rated printer. I would suggest throwing some easy / simple prints at it as it could be the ones you are trying have "ground level faults" with them, I often get this and it ruins prints. I could take a look at your Tinkercad work and see if there are any issues with it if you like? You can share the file with me on Tinkercad and I can have a look and see if I spot anything obvious? Your choice, it's just an offer :thumbup:

Maybe download a couple of simple short prints from Thingiverse and see how you get on with slicing and printing those?

I could always slice one of my files for your printer and send you the sliced file ready to print, yours is the Ender 3 V2?
The buck stops here .......

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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by GAP » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:28 pm

-steves- wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:57 pm
GAP wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:19 pm
I am now at the point where I am regretting buying this printer instead of the CR6SE that I originally looked at (auto levelling as a feature).
Don't think for one second that auto levelling will fix everything, it won't. Even with auto levelling, with a BLTouch you still have to set the z offset manually which I have found is much harder to nail than actually levelling the bed, which these days I can almost do with my eyes shut and rely on the tension pull on the paper. There is also the fact that from the 4 printers I have, the auto levelling only works properly on 2 of them, the other 2 I now set manually as it is more accurate :shock: Strange but true. :oops:

Your Ender 3 is a very highly rated printer. I would suggest throwing some easy / simple prints at it as it could be the ones you are trying have "ground level faults" with them, I often get this and it ruins prints. I could take a look at your Tinkercad work and see if there are any issues with it if you like? You can share the file with me on Tinkercad and I can have a look and see if I spot anything obvious? Your choice, it's just an offer :thumbup:

Maybe download a couple of simple short prints from Thingiverse and see how you get on with slicing and printing those?

I could always slice one of my files for your printer and send you the sliced file ready to print, yours is the Ender 3 V2?

I think my biggest issue is that I am doing something wrong setting the Z end stop I am going to go right back to the start again and set it again.

The files I am printing have come from Thingaverse and I have only imported them into tinkercad to combine and orientate them on the bed so I do not have multiple print files.

Yes my printer is an Ender 3 V2

I have copied a tinkercad link to the file I am trying to print via PM. Called "Comp Bogies for LGB"

Do not think the slicing is an issue as I have successfully printed files using Creality Slicer but happy to have another set of eyes run over it.

The BL touch is a last option if I cannot get the manual levelling truly correct, sort of a fine tune.
Graeme
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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by GAP » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:06 am

After 20 minutes setting up the bed level I tried to print a file and it failed.
Tried another file and success.
Tried to repeat printing the same file again and fail
Same settings nothing else touched, time between prints less than 5 minutes.

This is an example of what is causing me so much frustration the success at the bottom the fail at the top.
The PLA was just dragged off the bed by the nozzle and this while printing the brim.
P1060515.JPG
P1060515.JPG (93.39 KiB) Viewed 3847 times
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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by ge_rik » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:24 am

Steve may well have identified an issue. If the object you are trying to print is floating above the build plate by 0.1mm or so, then it could result in the problems you are encountering. Similarly if it's base isn't perfectly level or flat then you'll get the same problems.

In TinkerCAD, you can ensure a shape is grounded by clicking on it to highlight it and tapping the D key (D for Down).

I use Cura which allows me to import several objects and orient them on the bed. There's a button on it called "Lay flat" which ensures the highlighted object is lying flat on the bed.

As Steve says, keep it simple. Try printing a few downloaded simple individual shapes without messing about with them beforehand. Steve might spot if there's an issue with the Gcode files you've sent him.

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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by Jimmyb » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:22 am

I was considering buying a printer last year, but space, time, and what I would really need it for stopped me.
Having read through this saga of yours, it has been inspiring as to some of the issues a novice can encounter. I do have sympathy with you, as I too have had issues when engaging in a new (to me) endeavour, but eventually the issues are resolved, and months later you wonder what the fuss was about.
So keep persevering I am sure it will all "come clean in the wash", and thank you for sharing your frustrations it has been very enlightening :)

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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by -steves- » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:01 pm

I am not sure about anyone else but when I got my first 3D FDM printer, I could not get anything to stick to the build plate, after a couple of days (about 30+ attempted prints) I finally figured that I had not set the Z offset / Z level correctly and my attempt at levelling was horrendous. As time goes on, you just get a feel for the manual levelling and as Rik says, you look at the skirt or brim as it's laying down and adjust the bed as and when needed, just by a tweak, I actually did one of mine this morning as the front was starting to sag a little and it wasn't going sticking like it should, so I moved the wheels just a mm at the front and moved the build plate up, just a tiny fraction, all fixed for another few prints, until something else goes wrong ;) :thumbup:
The buck stops here .......

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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by ge_rik » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:50 pm

I've just been looking at the Creality website. I'm thinking of Christmas coming and see their cheapest Ender 3 (the DIY version) is just £130. Very tempting. I also noticed this picture in the blurb
Screenshot_2021-10-19-17-40-33-671.jpeg
Screenshot_2021-10-19-17-40-33-671.jpeg (428.05 KiB) Viewed 3837 times

It shows the springs being very tightly compressed which is what Steve suggested. Are yours as compressed as this?

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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by GAP » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:24 pm

Rik yes my springs were compressed as that but as I adjusted the bed they became looser and did not provide enough tension on a couple of addjustment wheels.
I replaced the original springs with the one I bought and that problem went away.
I levelled the bed and again tried to print but with no success.

With the bed now level I then sat and thought about what I was seeing and I came to the conclusion that I may have an adhesion problem and not a levelling issue.
I had a checklist of things to try and the next item up 'was use glue to improve adhesion' I looked around some office suppliers and newsagents for "Pritt" as recommended by RIK but could not find any.
Next I looked on the net for something close and found "UHU" glue stick was a close alternative, so following a raid on SWMBO's craft supplies I had a UHU stick and smeared the glue over the print bed and tried a print, success!, so next up was to see if the result was repeatable and again, success!, 2 more prints of 2 different files. There was an issue with one file in that it was wider than the other 2 so it was over an area where there was no glue.
This has reinforced that I may now be onto something so the next move is to cover the plate with glue and try to reprint the file I sent to steve and see how that goes.
I am familiar with the "D" button in tinkercad after seeing Rik's post about it.
With 20/20 hindsight maybe I should have moved onto using glue earlier but was reticent to do something to a brand new printer that I was unsure about.
I am hopeful that I am now on my way to enjoying 3D printing.
Graeme
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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by Jimmyb » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:04 am

GAP wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:24 pm Rik yes my springs were compressed as that but as I adjusted the bed they became looser and did not provide enough tension on a couple of addjustment wheels.
I replaced the original springs with the one I bought and that problem went away.
I levelled the bed and again tried to print but with no success.

With the bed now level I then sat and thought about what I was seeing and I came to the conclusion that I may have an adhesion problem and not a levelling issue.
I had a checklist of things to try and the next item up 'was use glue to improve adhesion' I looked around some office suppliers and newsagents for "Pritt" as recommended by RIK but could not find any.
Next I looked on the net for something close and found "UHU" glue stick was a close alternative, so following a raid on SWMBO's craft supplies I had a UHU stick and smeared the glue over the print bed and tried a print, success!, so next up was to see if the result was repeatable and again, success!, 2 more prints of 2 different files. There was an issue with one file in that it was wider than the other 2 so it was over an area where there was no glue.
This has reinforced that I may now be onto something so the next move is to cover the plate with glue and try to reprint the file I sent to steve and see how that goes.
I am familiar with the "D" button in tinkercad after seeing Rik's post about it.
With 20/20 hindsight maybe I should have moved onto using glue earlier but was reticent to do something to a brand new printer that I was unsure about.
I am hopeful that I am now on my way to enjoying 3D printing.
Sounds very promising, seems you may just have cracked it.:) :)

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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by GAP » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:20 am

Jimmyb wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:04 am
GAP wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:24 pm Rik yes my springs were compressed as that but as I adjusted the bed they became looser and did not provide enough tension on a couple of addjustment wheels.
I replaced the original springs with the one I bought and that problem went away.
I levelled the bed and again tried to print but with no success.

With the bed now level I then sat and thought about what I was seeing and I came to the conclusion that I may have an adhesion problem and not a levelling issue.
I had a checklist of things to try and the next item up 'was use glue to improve adhesion' I looked around some office suppliers and newsagents for "Pritt" as recommended by RIK but could not find any.
Next I looked on the net for something close and found "UHU" glue stick was a close alternative, so following a raid on SWMBO's craft supplies I had a UHU stick and smeared the glue over the print bed and tried a print, success!, so next up was to see if the result was repeatable and again, success!, 2 more prints of 2 different files. There was an issue with one file in that it was wider than the other 2 so it was over an area where there was no glue.
This has reinforced that I may now be onto something so the next move is to cover the plate with glue and try to reprint the file I sent to steve and see how that goes.
I am familiar with the "D" button in tinkercad after seeing Rik's post about it.
With 20/20 hindsight maybe I should have moved onto using glue earlier but was reticent to do something to a brand new printer that I was unsure about.
I am hopeful that I am now on my way to enjoying 3D printing.
Sounds very promising, seems you may just have cracked it.:) :)
Unfortunately no; today 7 attempts (same file) with only 1 success no change between attempts but the filament just would not stick.
This hit and miss result is now getting beyond a joke.
Graeme
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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by ge_rik » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:11 pm

Are you redoing the glue between prints? If you are printing the same file, the glue will need to be renewed where the part was printed. After a while, I remove the glue completely and start again (I use a broad bladed chisel to remove it).

I spread the glue in overlapping stripes in one direction and then do another series of stripes at 90 degrees to make sure the glue is evenly spread.

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Re: PLA curling at the nozzle

Post by GAP » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:59 am

ge_rik wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:11 pm Are you redoing the glue between prints? If you are printing the same file, the glue will need to be renewed where the part was printed. After a while, I remove the glue completely and start again (I use a broad bladed chisel to remove it).

I spread the glue in overlapping stripes in one direction and then do another series of stripes at 90 degrees to make sure the glue is evenly spread.

Rik
After sitting the printer in the naughty corner and ignoring it for about a week (I went outside and built some track on the cane line) I returned this afternoon and;
1. Cleaned off the glue from the bed and,
2. pushed the wire tool up through the nozzle (it was printing in a vertical wavy pattern) to clear any obstruction.

Before cleaning off the glue I thought about how it applied and it was lumpy and did not lay with an even thickness, surmised that as it was in SWMBO's craft box it may be to old.
I purchased a new stick and voila!! it spread smoothly and with an even thickness.

The next thing I looked at is the angle of the feed for the filament into the extruder assembly, the filament was stretched taut and had a near 90 degree bend before entering.
A quick look on the net revealed that the roll on top of the printer can lead to laying down issues as the roll can wobble the frame because it is top heavy.
I downloaded a file for an extension that takes the roll off the top and lets the filament feed in from the side. With no weight on top of the frame the chance of the reel wobble upsetting the extruder's travel is alleviated.
At the moment this is happily printing with the filament sticking to the new glue, nothing else was done to the bed level settings, so fingers crossed I may be able to start printing successfully.

It appears that I may have made every rookie error in the book, here's hoping the mistakes I have learned from are the last ones I will come across.
Graeme
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