Which Filament For...

If you are having problems with your 3D printer or have had a problem and discovered a great solution, then share your experiences here.
Post Reply
User avatar
FWLR
Driver
Driver
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:45 am
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK

Which Filament For...

Post by FWLR » Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:16 am

Which filament should be used for outdoor use. I was doing something for my youngest grandson last week. I sprayed it and seeing how it was such a nice day, I left it by the open garage door thinking that it would harden off I bit quicker. ( I was getting a bit fed up with doing this for him, it was taking me ages to do) When I went back about half an hour later what did I find. A curled up bit of useless part..... I then thought what if I was doing a building for outside, would that end up just like this. I use PLA. Is there anything else that is stronger and less susceptible to a lot of heat, or is it a case of moving the building indoors after we have finished.

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by philipy » Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:41 am

ABS may be slightly better, but I've had PLA items outside for several years 24/7/365 with no major problems. Although I did find that just one out of several sections of 'stone' mouldings on the front of my manor house ( mower shelter) shrank and curved slightly after a full summer in the afternoon sun last year. I put that down to it not being fully bonded to the foamboard wall it was mounted on. However the PLA platform fences and platform faces that I've spoken about many times and were amongst my first attempts at printing, are still perfect having been outside fulltime for 3 years.

My first thought on your problem would be to consider the infill percentage and the infill pattern that you used on whatever it was - maybe the part wasn't rigid enough to withstand shrinkage movements in 3 dimensions? Also if it was freshly sprayed and left in hot sun, the paint solvent may have softened the plastic and allowed the sun to do it's worst ( or vice versa).
Philip

User avatar
ge_rik
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6497
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by ge_rik » Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:56 am

Did you spray just one side of the part or both sides? I've found that spraying just one side of plastic will make it curl whether it's pla or just styrene sheet, particularly if the paint dries quickly (eg when left out in the sun). Spraying both sides helps to stop it from curling.

I'm experimenting with PETG at the moment. It has a higher melting temperature than PLA but doesn't have the difficulties with layer adhesion suffered by ABS. Just putting together my first wagon made from PETG (using pipe weld adhesive) so not sure how it performs as a finished model. It does tend to string, though, and doesn't like 100% cooling, so still experimenting with that aspect.

Rik
------------------------
Peckforton Light Railway - Blog Facebook Youtube

User avatar
FWLR
Driver
Driver
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:45 am
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by FWLR » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:18 am

Thanks for your replies guys.

I did spray both sides first Rik, I needed to give another coat to one side on both of the pieces. I really think though that it was the extreme heat that day. Surely if the temperature is reaching 30 degrees that would be hot enough to boil an egg....... :lol:

I have heard also that PETG can be a bit of a pig during printing, but if you get the settings right, a lot of people have done some brilliant models.

I think the infill was about 60%. One thing that has had me confused though Philip. I know it doesn't take much :roll: Does the amount of infill make the item stronger ie: More infill = stronger part. and does it obversely make the part longer to print. It may sound daft to other members, but sometimes things get confusing for me, well most of the time really... :lol: :lol: :lol:


This is the said part.

Grandsons Minecraft Chess Board Part
Grandsons Minecraft Chess Board Part
BF886861-4C4B-4775-B9D4-B402AE5ABD6B.jpeg (2.49 MiB) Viewed 5375 times
Grandsons Minecraft Chess Board Part
Grandsons Minecraft Chess Board Part
D89AB9A1-B1F2-4FB6-8C9B-379D24E4537B.jpeg (1.89 MiB) Viewed 5375 times

Pretty nasty hey........

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by philipy » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:35 am

As you say, pretty nasty! Thats a shame because the original print looks to be very nice.
Looking at the way it is distorted, with a bigger problem at one end, I think it is a heat thing pure and simple, with the others things that Rik and I have suggested probably contributing in some way.
For some reason I assumed that the object would be relatively bulky rather than thin and flatish. 60% infill is pretty high, normally 10-25% would be fine and going up 60% increases print time by a factor of 4-6 times. Having said that, depending on the cross section dims of the ribs I can see why you might want to up the %, but I don't think I'd go that high, because the gaps between the infill lines would be virtually non-existant. Of course the other relevant factors are wall, base and top layer line counts and layer thickness, because obviously the higher those figures are the less space there is between them to actually infill anyway. Get them high enough and you have a solid!
There are normally several different infill patterns available in the slicer settings and some are said to be stronger than others. Tbh, in my prints I haven't ever printed anything with a large enough volume for it to be significant, I think it really only matters for structural or mechanical parts.

I am slightly guessing, but my gut feeling is that in this particular instance, your rib section dimensions are probably small enough that the infill type is irrelevant but the multiple 'wall's' will make it stronger and more warp resistant.

Just a suggestion, which may not help, but you don't have much to lose, try sticking the failure in very hot ( not boiling) water for a few minutes to get it to soften slightly and then immediately put it on a flat surface with a heavy weight on top and leave it over night to cool down. It may get it back to something like flat.
Philip

User avatar
FWLR
Driver
Driver
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:45 am
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by FWLR » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:48 am

Thank you Philip, that's very helpful. Just what I needed, someone to explain in a little more detail what the infill is. :salute:

Also thank you for the suggestion on putting the part in hot boiling water and adding a weight. I had never thought of that, but as it happens I printed another part off and this time kept it out of the :sunny: :sunny:
:lol: :lol:

I have I must say though have printed most of my parts that are of a decent size and thickness with 60%. I should be doing them like you say with about 10-25%. I will give them that setting from now on and see how they turnout.

One can only try.. :happy3:

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by philipy » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:17 am

FWLR wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:48 am I should be doing them like you say with about 10-25%. I will give them that setting from now on and see how they turnout.
I normally use 15 or 20 and only down to 10% if it's a rough print to check something. Go too low and you increase the risk of 'pillowing', where the air trapped inside stays warm too long and pushes the top surface up. You can sort that by either increasing the infill or increasing the number of top layers ( or a combination of both)
Philip

User avatar
FWLR
Driver
Driver
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:45 am
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by FWLR » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:42 am

Thank you again Philip, you have been really helpful. I am now printing at 25% infill now though, the first print I did was set at 10%, but the print like you said started to lift, so for me I will keep it at 25%.

One thing, would the temperature of the bed affect the lifting of the print if it is too hot. I am mine at 50 degrees and it has done a pretty good job for nearly all of my prints. There have been some lifting at the corners on a few of them, but I put that done to not having a raft on them. I try to do my prints without a raft if I can because they are a pain to take of the print. I find that just a brim is brilliant, but then some prints move and I have lost the print. Needless to say I keep I watchful eye on the print and I only use a brim mainly for light weight small prints, nothing to big or tall.

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by philipy » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:25 pm

I have my build plate initial layer at 60deg and then drop to 50 deg for the rest of the print. The 60 helps with sticking to the plate. Then my normal printing temp is 200 or just occasionally 210.
I never use a raft. I did when I first had it because thats what the instructions said, but, as just you said, I can never get the print off the raft! I use a brim for small items, or nothing at all for items with a reasonable size footprint ( bigger than about 10mm square, equivalent).
Philip

User avatar
FWLR
Driver
Driver
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:45 am
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by FWLR » Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:49 am

Thanks Philip.

Very interesting reply. How do you set the first layer to 60deg though and then change to 50. I thought when you set your bed temperature that was it. My slicer which is FlashForges own just has one setting I think, I will have to have look and do a screen shot, it maybe better if I did, because I think you use some other slicer program for which I may have tried to download and if it did I couldn't get it to be recognised by my machine.


85A20DC3-C585-4FCA-A097-4111093C6FE7.png
85A20DC3-C585-4FCA-A097-4111093C6FE7.png (948.53 KiB) Viewed 5290 times

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by philipy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:45 pm

I can't answer about Flashprint I'm afraid, although as far as I can see it has very limited ability to change the print parameters. I think Trevor uses it so he may be able to answer more fully.
I use Qidiprint which is a customised version of Cura, supplied by the m/c manufacturer.
It has literally hundreds of customisable settings, most of which I don't understand, let alone know how to use! Rik uses the full version of Cura, which is why, for example, he is able to play around with the "Ironing" feature settings which he mentions from time to time, and which is disabled on mine for some inscrutable Chinese reason!.
However, in the screen shot below, on the RH side you'll see it has options for initial layer and subsequent layer temps.( The figures that look like >10 are actually "210" but rescaling the picture to fit on the forum screen has squashed it!)
Below that section is an "Expert mode" button, and pressing that brings up the small window which is on the LH side of the screen, and that has a number of different settings available, including the plate temps. This allows defaults to be set which can be altered individually in the RH window on a print by print basis if required.
Screenshot 2021-09-10 13.26.49.png
Screenshot 2021-09-10 13.26.49.png (46.44 KiB) Viewed 5284 times
Philip

Trevor Thompson
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 964
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:30 pm
Location: South West Wales

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by Trevor Thompson » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:41 am

The answer that you really need is that you can only use flashprint with this printer. That is one of the disadvantages of the particular printer that you have. I don't think there is a way of changing the temperature like Philip suggests.

However there are lots of advantages. Anyway you specifically mentioned that you had problems getting the print off the bed.

As you use it the flexible build plate deteriorates. It is the self adhesive film which covers it which ages, and deteriorates as you use it. It can be "maintained" by cleaning it with an alcohol solvent, or with acetone. As it gets marked you can use fine emery cloth to refresh the surface - and then clean it of course. It is a balance between adhesion and getting it off!

You can buy the film separately for half the price of the flexible build plate, clean the old film off and fit the new one yourself. Just be warned that cleaning the glue off the plate can be VERRY difficult. I have done this with variable success.

Eventually you will have to get a new flexible build plate. Perhaps you are getting to the point where you will need to invest in one soon? I have just bought my sixth flexible build plate.

I cant really make any comments on using PLA - because I rarely use it. My current print in PLA has ended in a blocked jet twice - so Im going back to ABS.

However I can comment on getting the print off the raft! I have real problems here because my prints are always well stuck to the raft. The easy answer is to lift the print a mm off the bed when you are in flashprint. Then use auto supports. Then the supports will break easily when you separate the print from the raft. The only downside of this is that you have to clean off the remains of the supports from the bottom of the print. And by the way don't use the default tree like supports for this use the other alternative which prints a thin ridge back and forward under the print.

Trevor Thompson
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 964
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:30 pm
Location: South West Wales

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by Trevor Thompson » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:53 am

The following comes with a warning - which is why I have been a bit slow to respond to this - I am really better able to comment on printing with ABS rather than PLA but maybe this will have some relevance.

Perhaps I should comment on the screen shot you posted, showing flashprint and two box like prints being sliced. I notice that they seem to be hollow underneath - I would have printed them the other way up - with the hollow uppermost to reduce the supports needed. I would have lifted it 1 mm and used the "linear" supports at the default setting (1.5mm wide).

I have had problems getting thin prints to be stable. The chess board did look pretty thin. I like flat surfaces to be about 3mm thick, and I tend to use higher infil ratios. I am typically making things with 6 top, side and bottom layers, and with at least 40% infil, increasing that to 60% for some prints. For example the part I made to repair the print head had 80% infil - because it is subject to a lot of stress, and its hot.

I should also add that when corners lift my first reaction is to clean the build plate.

Hope some of this helps.

Trevor

User avatar
FWLR
Driver
Driver
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:45 am
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by FWLR » Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:13 am

Thanks Philip.

At this moment I am waiting for a job to finish on my printer and then try the program that has a slicer I have found that my be ok for me, I am going to try it anyway...It is called 3DPrinterOS, now I don't know if it is any good, but I will report back with anything I have.


Thanks again Philip for your continuing support. It is very welcome.. :thumbright:

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by philipy » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:32 pm

Trevor Thompson wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:53 am

Perhaps I should comment on the screen shot you posted, showing flashprint and two box like prints being sliced. I notice that they seem to be hollow underneath - I would have printed them the other way up - with the hollow uppermost to reduce the supports needed. I would have lifted it 1 mm and used the "linear" supports at the default setting (1.5mm wide).
I noticed that as well, but forgot to comment. I would also print it the other way up but flat on the bed with no raft, no supports, etc. That way you use the flat bed surface to give a perfectly smooth surface with no need to clean anything up. From what I've read that doesn't seem to be an option with Flashprint though?
Philip

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by philipy » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:41 pm

FWLR wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:13 am It is called 3DPrinterOS, now I don't know if it is any good, but I will report back with anything I have.
I'd never heard of this but I've just had a look and I'm not sure it is, or does, what you want. It seems to be a sophisticated management software to interface various different machincs and slicers together?

I'd really suggest you look at Cura, which is free and very stable, with loads of help on the web. I just found this from a quick search:
https://community.ultimaker.com/topic/3 ... eator-pro/
Philip

Trevor Thompson
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 964
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:30 pm
Location: South West Wales

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by Trevor Thompson » Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:38 pm

The raft is optional with flashprint and this type of printer. The comment on lifting the print by 1mm was a way to get the print to separate easily from the raft. Yes it needs cleaning up, but my experience suggests that a print is more likely to work if printed on a raft.

It also means that if it is difficult to get off the bed its just the raft which gets damaged when you have to prise it off.

Trevor

User avatar
FWLR
Driver
Driver
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:45 am
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK

Re: Which Filament For...

Post by FWLR » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:26 am

Hi Trevor.

Thank you for your reply. I don't really have any problem with getting my parts off the bed and I clean the bed with isopropyl every other print. It might seem like I am over doing with the isopropyl, but I find that the print comes off easier now than before when I first got my machine. Then it was a case of printing first, then finding out that the problems of getting prints off were getting harder and harder, until that is I cleaned my bed for the first time with isopropyl.

I can see from the start of the conversation with Philip and I, that you have thought that I have got problems with getting parts off the bed. It is actually when I don't use a raft on some parts they start to lift off the bed during printing. Now I am trying to reduce the temperature of the bed and it seems to be working a little bit better. It is mainly a problem with the larger prints though that it happens because, am I right in thinking that there is a lot more heat generated because of the amount of time the extruder keeps on going over the print. It is something that can be solved I am sure of it and I have learnt a lot from Philip and the more that more experienced members than I can give there valuable time and knowledge, the more I feel that I will be able to print better parts.

That part that I have put on the screen shot is how it appears off the file before I have done any moving of it. I was just showing Phillip the setting that was being used because I couldn't see how to reduce the heat on the first initial layer and then for the rest Philip puts more heat. On Flashprint we are not able to do that it seems....

The part on the screen and for most of any part that is visible, I have found that if you print it face up like you see on the screen, it leaves all kind of marks and lines, likewise if I turn it over and print with the flat down onto the bed then like you say and Philip also, that it is a pig to get off cleanly. I do lift parts off the bed by about 2-3 mm and put linear supports on, I tend not to use the tree supports though, they are worse for getting of the parts, because no matter which setting I try to reduce the thickness of the support, it leaves horrible marks on the part when it is removed.

I try to print my parts on their side now because it tends to leave both sides pretty smooth, with hardly any marks at all, which I find after they are painted gives a lot better appearance to the part. It's a personal thing though, you may think it's not worth it and yes it does tend for longer print times and I think more filament, but the cost is minor I think, I don't know if I am right or wrong there though Trevor. Maybe there are better ways, I am not that experienced though and I do the best I can. I do improve though a little bit when like I say members give their valuable knowledge and far superior experience.

The main reason though for this thread Trevor was to find out witch filament was better for outside. Philip answered it I think with his explanation on his builds that are left outside. I think though if it was a thin part, no matter which filament was used it would end up warping in the very hot sun..
'HOT SUN :sunny: ' what's that in the UK.... :lol: :lol:

The part that I used to show on the thread that ended up warping was printed at the thinest 3mm and thickest 8mm and it isn't might to be used outside. It was something I printed for my youngest Grandson to use for school and it needed to be in four separate parts, so he could explain in class the principle of what the subject was about. School things are way beyond me now..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway I am going to try and use Cura, but if it doesn't work or load, because MacBooks seem not to want to accept or use things that I load.... :dontknow: why....

I hope that this thread can carry on with members exchanging knowledge in a simple way for other members too, then hopefully we can feel more confident with producing 3D parts for our hobby and for anything else not railway related. I do feel more confident now with TinkerCad, though there is a lot more I need to understand and put into practice, but hey, that's what so brilliant about our hobby, we are always learning don't you think.

PS sorry about the very long reply guys.........

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests