Not sticking ?

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Dave Cooper
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Not sticking ?

Post by Dave Cooper » Thu May 11, 2023 4:57 pm

May I ask what is probably a rooky question of the hive mind please.
I have ahd a small disaster with a couple of prints recently which I managed to abort thankfully.
My daughter has printed a number of identical items over the last few days, quite successfully, until last night when I also managed to abort the print.
The base of the print (a roundish item of approx 60mm dia) on that occasion somehow detached itself along one side after maybe 10 layers and that then curled up, which then caught on the printer head and made a clicking sound. This allerted me to the issue.
Today the print was attempted again but, when the maching was left unattended for a while, the clips holding the glass were pinged off and that became displaced and nearly fell on the floor.
Upon examining the glass, it appears that the centre, appart from appearing to be stained, seems to have a different texture to the rest of the bed.
As you can probably appreciate, I am now somewhat hesitant to try another print.
I usually clean the glass with surgical spirit before each print but am wondering if that has some unforeseen effect on the glass.

any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Many thanks

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by philipy » Thu May 11, 2023 6:30 pm

Does your glass bed have a slight texture, probably in a kind of dots pattern? If so, I suspect that the texture is wearing off, which would explain the apparent colour and texture change, particularly if you always print things in the centre of the bed and at approx the same size.

I tend to try to move things around the bed a little ( by changing the X & Y coordinates) and you could try that with one of the items that is having the problem, just to see if that helps. If so, there are several remedies for bed adhesion problems:
Blue painters tape, cheap hairspray, a layer of "Pritt stik", are commonly used, but they do require cleaning off when they start to build up. The best thing that I have found is a product called "3D Lac Plus". It isn't cheap but one spray lasts for ages before needing to be reapplied - simply wipe the bed to get rid of any dust and then spray from about 8" and leave it for a minute or two to dry.
On that subject, I've not heard of using Surgical spirit to clean the bed before. Not saying it won't work, but IsoPropanol ( IPA) is more commonly used, or Acetone.
Philip

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by GAP » Thu May 11, 2023 9:49 pm

Dave Cooper wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 4:57 pm May I ask what is probably a rooky question of the hive mind please.
I have ahd a small disaster with a couple of prints recently which I managed to abort thankfully.
My daughter has printed a number of identical items over the last few days, quite successfully, until last night when I also managed to abort the print.
The base of the print (a roundish item of approx 60mm dia) on that occasion somehow detached itself along one side after maybe 10 layers and that then curled up, which then caught on the printer head and made a clicking sound. This allerted me to the issue.
Today the print was attempted again but, when the maching was left unattended for a while, the clips holding the glass were pinged off and that became displaced and nearly fell on the floor.
Upon examining the glass, it appears that the centre, appart from appearing to be stained, seems to have a different texture to the rest of the bed.
As you can probably appreciate, I am now somewhat hesitant to try another print.
I usually clean the glass with surgical spirit before each print but am wondering if that has some unforeseen effect on the glass.

any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Many thanks
I had a similar issue on my Creality Ender3V2 but it stopped after I added a BLTouch and stronger springs to assist bed leveling.
I use IPA every time before a print and have had no trouble since.
I am also storing my filament in vacuum seal bags with silica gel bags to reduce/eliminate moisture in the filament
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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by Dave Cooper » Thu May 11, 2023 11:27 pm

Hi gents and thank you for the replies.
I did try acetone but it didn't seem to work.
I was told that IPA was favourite and that surned out to be surgical spirit by another name anyway.
To be honest ,neither seemed to work that well to my mind.
If coating the glass to cause adhesion (yes it has a sort of dimpled surface by the way) then that may be the way to go so I will give it a try.
I did always wonder about the dimpled surface as I would have thought a completely flat surface was what was needed but then I didn't design the thing so have no real idea what I am talking about.
My machine is an Ender 3 Neo so very similar to that mentioned and it has a 'touch' gadget built in so I don't think I have any levelling issues, or stability come to that.It is only months old so maybe Creality have changed the spec on springs etc. I don't know though.
The filament is actually just out of the vacuum sealed bag and in a dry warm room. I understand and have heard of needing to keep the drums 'dry'. That seems to be a question much discussed and disagreed about so I have more research to do on that issue I think. I am a novice at this game after all.

I will try a thorough clean then a coating of 'something' and see what happens.
In fact I just ordered the 3D Lac so we will see how that does.

Thanks again gents

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by ge_rik » Fri May 12, 2023 6:14 am

Hi Dave
I used to have all sorts of problems with lack of adhesion - curling edges, prints becoming detached, tangled spaghetti, etc.. At first I tried Pritt but it wasn't always successful and it had to be cleaned off the bed regularly. I now use cheap hair spray and now seldom have adhesion problems.

I buy the cheapest sprays from Home Bargains. It requires the lightest dusting with the spray otherwise you'll need a chisel to prise the prints off the plate. I've used it on the dimpled and plain sides of the glass bed and it works effectively on both.

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by philipy » Fri May 12, 2023 6:22 am

Dave Cooper wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 11:27 pm
I was told that IPA was favourite and that surned out to be surgical spirit by another name anyway.
Not necessarily true. In the UK, Surgical Spirit can be either IPA or denatured alcohol, i.e Ethanol, and both have some Methyl Salicylate in as well, which accounts for it's "Antiseptic" smell. Thealcohol will of course evapourate quickly, but I wonder if the Methyl Salicylate might linger and slowly build up? I don't know about that, I'm just thinking out loud.
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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by GTB » Fri May 12, 2023 9:27 am

philipy wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 6:22 am Thealcohol will of course evapourate quickly, but I wonder if the Methyl Salicylate might linger and slowly build up? I don't know about that, I'm just thinking out loud.
Methyl Salicylate (oil of wintergreen) is an oily liquid with a boiling point of about 220degC. Unless it forms an azeotrope with ethanol or isopropanol, odds are it will remain behind on the surface. The distinctive liniment (heat rub) smell will identify it if present.

Surgical Spirit and rubbing alcohol aren't necessarily the same thing, but both will have additives of one sort or another.

If you want to use isopropanol for cleaning surfaces, look for the cleaning solvent grade. In Oz you can get it from the big green shed as Diggers brand and labelled as Isopropyl Alcohol. No idea where you'd get it in the UK.

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by philipy » Fri May 12, 2023 10:36 am

GTB wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 9:27 am In Oz you can get it from the big green shed as Diggers brand and labelled as Isopropyl Alcohol. No idea where you'd get it in the UK.
I get 99% pure IPA from ebay in 5 litre bottles.
Philip

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by drewzero1 » Fri May 12, 2023 5:33 pm

I have an Ender 3 v2 and the only way I've managed to get prints to consistently stick is by covering the bed in a layer of blue painter's tape, then slathering it with a layer of glue stick. The tape tends to last for about a dozen prints depending on how well I've leveled the bed. Cleanup is easy: peel the tape off the bed and replace with a new piece. I like that it forms a protective layer over the bed and allows a bit of help removing stuck prints.

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by -steves- » Fri May 12, 2023 7:14 pm

I personally use "3D LAC", it's utter brilliant but expensive. Like Rik does, I have heard many many people have great success using cheap hair spray, though I admit to never having tried it myself. :dontknow:
The buck stops here .......

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by ge_rik » Sat May 13, 2023 7:28 am

-steves- wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 7:14 pm ........ Like Rik does, I have heard many many people have great success using cheap hair spray, though I admit to never having tried it myself. :dontknow:
I seldom clean my glass beds, just give them a scrape every so often with the scraper to remove any scraps of filament. This means I only need to use spray every three or four prints, unless the part has only a small footprint in which case I will give an extra brief squirt where I know the part is going to be on the bed.

Rik

PS When I first started using hair spray I was a bit too over enthusiastic and managed to delaminate a couple of chunks of the glass bed when chiselling off the part because the adherence was so strong. Now, if a part is reluctant to come away, I've found it's advisable to leave the bed to cool and the part comes away more easily. I now have two glass beds so I can let one cool off while using the other so the printer isn't sitting idle.
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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by -steves- » Sat May 13, 2023 9:06 am

ge_rik wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 7:28 am
I seldom clean my glass beds, just give them a scrape every so often with the scraper to remove any scraps of filament. This means I only need to use spray every three or four prints, unless the part has only a small footprint in which case I will give an extra brief squirt where I know the part is going to be on the bed.

Rik

PS When I first started using hair spray I was a bit too over enthusiastic and managed to delaminate a couple of chunks of the glass bed when chiselling off the part because the adherence was so strong. Now, if a part is reluctant to come away, I've found it's advisable to leave the bed to cool and the part comes away more easily. I now have two glass beds so I can let one cool off while using the other so the printer isn't sitting idle.
This is the exact way I use 3D Lac, must be a good method for applying and cleaning :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by philipy » Sat May 13, 2023 10:57 am

At the risk of being a "Me too"...Me too! :thumbleft: :thumbleft:
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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by GAP » Sun May 14, 2023 12:03 am

Another consideration I have just stumbled on is have you changed the filament for another roll.
I ask this because when I started my production run of wheels and parts for my coal hopper I changed the filament roll to a black one.
This roll had previously been left on the printer for quite a while (about 3 weeks) and when it started printing I began experiencing adhesion problems, curling of parts and some parts of the print becoming a conglomerated mess which caught on the print nozzle and dragged some parts of the print out of place.
I changed the roll to another and the issues have gone away, I suspect that there may be moisture in the filament causing the problems with the filament curling up onto the nozzle.
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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by philipy » Sun May 14, 2023 6:33 am

GAP wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:03 am
This roll had previously been left on the printer for quite a while (about 3 weeks) and when it started printing I began experiencing adhesion problems, curling of parts and some parts of the print becoming a conglomerated mess which caught on the print nozzle and dragged some parts of the print out of place.
I changed the roll to another and the issues have gone away, I suspect that there may be moisture in the filament causing the problems with the filament curling up onto the nozzle.
That sounds feasible and brings us back to the subject of filament dryers, etc. :D
Philip

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by Dave Cooper » Sun May 14, 2023 5:31 pm

Thanks a million gentlemen.
You have all given me a lot to consider.
I am literally just trying the first prink having cleaned the bed thoroughly with 'rubbing alcohol' and I have 'dusted' the bed with 3D LAC.
The question of the change of filament roll may actually be contributary. I had changed from my usual black (which has been perfect) to a white from a different maker (Tinmorrey) to print some skulls (don't ask please) for my daughter. However, we had printed 5 before the issue arose.
I am watching carefully now to see how my GVT brake van side comes along.

Many thanks again
Dave

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by -steves- » Sun May 14, 2023 8:22 pm

Dave Cooper wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 5:31 pm Thanks a million gentlemen.
You have all given me a lot to consider.
I am literally just trying the first prink having cleaned the bed thoroughly with 'rubbing alcohol' and I have 'dusted' the bed with 3D LAC.
The question of the change of filament roll may actually be contributary. I had changed from my usual black (which has been perfect) to a white from a different maker (Tinmorrey) to print some skulls (don't ask please) for my daughter. However, we had printed 5 before the issue arose.
I am watching carefully now to see how my GVT brake van side comes along.

Many thanks again
Dave
If you have just washed the bed, the first print may not stick that well. After that, it just gets stronger and stronger, to the point where you chisel them off. A light dusting is all it will need after the first print. :thumbup:
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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by GAP » Sun May 14, 2023 9:15 pm

philipy wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 6:33 am
GAP wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:03 am
This roll had previously been left on the printer for quite a while (about 3 weeks) and when it started printing I began experiencing adhesion problems, curling of parts and some parts of the print becoming a conglomerated mess which caught on the print nozzle and dragged some parts of the print out of place.
I changed the roll to another and the issues have gone away, I suspect that there may be moisture in the filament causing the problems with the filament curling up onto the nozzle.
That sounds feasible and brings us back to the subject of filament dryers, etc. :D
I have a food hydrator being delivered today so will be drying all my spools.

Funnily enough later in the day I successfully made 3 prints using the original roll after I made a new file but did not include some models which were a lot higher than the rest (I had already made a new file so this was the third file that I used).

I also cleaned the nozzle so I have no idea what was happening there and whether it was the nozzle all along.
Graeme
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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by Dave Cooper » Wed May 17, 2023 4:41 pm

A brief update gents.
Thus far all seems well.
The GVT brake van side worked a treat and was somewhat tricky to extracte from the bed. I take that as a 'sticking very well' win.
I am printing the floor now so we shall see how that goes.

Regards

Dave

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Re: Not sticking ?

Post by ge_rik » Wed May 17, 2023 8:02 pm

Sounds like a win. Remember, a very very light dusting is all that's needed.

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