New project. Guess what it is....( De Winton)

A place where discussions are about 3D printing.
User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

New project. Guess what it is....( De Winton)

Post by philipy » Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:25 am

After seeing/reading something recently, I dragged out some drawings that I've had filed away for years (literally!) and made a start....
Can you guess?
DSC_0004.JPG
DSC_0004.JPG (461 KiB) Viewed 3748 times
Philip

User avatar
GTB
Driver
Driver
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:46 pm
Location: Australia

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by GTB » Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:43 am

philipy wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:25 am After seeing/reading something recently, I dragged out some drawings that I've had filed away for years (literally!) and made a start....
Can you guess?
Looks like bits of a DeWinton VB, or something similar..............

Graeme

User avatar
StuartJ
Cleaner
Cleaner
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:39 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by StuartJ » Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:42 am

De Winton Penrhyn 'Port' Class? Like George Henry and Kathleen...?

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by philipy » Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:13 am

Two holes in one!

I left this picture out because I thought it might make it to easy to guess. :lol: :lol:
DSC_0002.JPG
DSC_0002.JPG (105.68 KiB) Viewed 3737 times
Stuart, it was your PDF build that inspired me to have ago at it. I get as much pleasure from drawing it up and getting it to print as I do from building it.

I had two sets of drawings on file the 16mm Assoc/ Dave Watkins ones of Idris and the Merionith Raliway Soc ones for George Henry. I strted with the Idris ones and then realised that since they were intended for a live steam version, they were not entirely correct in some respects, so I switched to the Merionith ones which were taken from George Henry in the museum 50 years ago. I also found a picture of the loco out of service ( or derelict?) which has an amazing amount of detail which isn't clear on the drawings.
Philip

User avatar
StuartJ
Cleaner
Cleaner
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:39 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by StuartJ » Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:58 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:13 am I had two sets of drawings on file the 16mm Assoc/ Dave Watkins ones of Idris and the Merionith Raliway Soc ones for George Henry. I strted with the Idris ones and then realised that since they were intended for a live steam version, they were not entirely correct in some respects, so I switched to the Merionith ones which were taken from George Henry in the museum 50 years ago. I also found a picture of the loco out of service ( or derelict?) which has an amazing amount of detail which isn't clear on the drawings.
The best drawing I found was a Narrow Gauge Railway Museum one included in a live steam build article in Steamlines No.13 - there was something in the Merioneth Mercury one that didn't match the published dimensions. I can't remember what a year later though sorry! I can email you a copy if that helps.

The derelict loco is Kathleen, which I think is now at the Vale of Rheidol. George Henry is still as it came out of service at Penrhyn - apparently it still has the remains of the last fire in the grate!

Some detail pictures of George Henry here: https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id= ... on%20tywyn

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by philipy » Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:10 pm

Thanks Stuart.
I think I've seen those flickr ones, but the drawing would be helpful, please.
Philip

User avatar
Peter Butler
Driver
Driver
Posts: 5219
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:33 pm
Location: West Wales

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by Peter Butler » Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:57 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:13 am

I get as much pleasure from drawing it up and getting it to print as I do from building it.
Those are the words I was hoping never to hear on the Forum.
Unfortunately, I believe that will be the future for model making, and other creative activities too! The virtual reality world is too tempting for future generations who have no patience, and no skill development time, to make a 3D item from scratch.
I do appreciate and praise anyone with the tremendous skill to master a 3D programme, something I have taken advantage of several times before, but am totally incapable of doing myself, but I can foresee when the need to turn that object on screen into reality is surely diminishing?
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?

Trevor Thompson
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 964
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:30 pm
Location: South West Wales

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by Trevor Thompson » Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:45 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:57 pm
philipy wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:13 am

I get as much pleasure from drawing it up and getting it to print as I do from building it.
Those are the words I was hoping never to hear on the Forum.
Unfortunately, I believe that will be the future for model making, and other creative activities too! The virtual reality world is too tempting for future generations who have no patience, and no skill development time, to make a 3D item from scratch.
I do appreciate and praise anyone with the tremendous skill to master a 3D programme, something I have taken advantage of several times before, but am totally incapable of doing myself, but I can foresee when the need to turn that object on screen into reality is surely diminishing?
I think that if it gets to the point that this isn't about making a real object, then the plot will have been lost. So in that respect I agree with you Peter. However like Philip I get a lot of satisfaction out of creating the 3 D model. But that isn't an end in itself. It is just a different way of creating a model. We are still translating a set of drawings into a real object.

Of course the whole point of what we do is to run trains in our gardens in one form or another - and as long as that remains true then nothing will really change - just some differences in how we go about getting there.

Trevor

Trevor Thompson
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 964
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:30 pm
Location: South West Wales

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by Trevor Thompson » Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:48 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:13 am Two holes in one!

I left this picture out because I thought it might make it to easy to guess. :lol: :lol: DSC_0002.JPG

Stuart, it was your PDF build that inspired me to have ago at it. I get as much pleasure from drawing it up and getting it to print as I do from building it.

I had two sets of drawings on file the 16mm Assoc/ Dave Watkins ones of Idris and the Merionith Raliway Soc ones for George Henry. I strted with the Idris ones and then realised that since they were intended for a live steam version, they were not entirely correct in some respects, so I switched to the Merionith ones which were taken from George Henry in the museum 50 years ago. I also found a picture of the loco out of service ( or derelict?) which has an amazing amount of detail which isn't clear on the drawings.
I see that this is mostly resin printed. It looks very good. What resin have you used?

Trevor

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by philipy » Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:27 pm

Trevor Thompson wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:48 pm

I see that this is mostly resin printed. It looks very good. What resin have you used?
The pictures I posted earlier are actually ALL resin. Previously I've only used standard resin for small detail parts, but the resin I have atm I bought by accident ( pressed the wrong button!). I've been very impressed with it, so as an experiment I thought I'd try it on this for more structural stuff. It's Anycubic "Tough" Translucent resin. It looks the same as their standard stuff but isn't quite as brittle ( although it will still snap if hit) and can actually be carved with a sharp knife. It is also slightly flexible after first curing but I think that gets lost as time passes. It is also an absolute swine to get off the plate if it is printed flat on the plate, rather than on a skate.
Philip

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by philipy » Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:54 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:57 pm
philipy wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:13 am

I get as much pleasure from drawing it up and getting it to print as I do from building it.
Those are the words I was hoping never to hear on the Forum.
Peter, I think you are missing the point that I get twice as much pleasure, not half as much, as you seem to be thinking. Some of the things I've drawn and built take longer this way than if I'd simply taken a sheet of styrene and mangled it in the time honoured way, but there is an additional satisfaction from bending the computer to my will! :lol:
Now, having spent hours drawing something up and then printing it, I have still only produced a kit which I have to build - glue, fill, sand, paint, etc. Not to mention fitting a mechanism and the electrics, which are no different to any scratchbuilt or kit built alternative. The other difference of course is that if a part doesn't fit or is prototypically incorrect, then it is MY fault and I can't swear at some anonymous kit designer!
I am quite capable of, for instance, planting dozens, if not hundreds, of rivets on a model and at the end the improvement over the original flat surface is greatly satisfying and worth the effort, but I get no actual pleasure from the act of planting the rivets. How much simpler and quicker it is to draw one rivet and, with a couple of mouse clicks, have a line of identical rivets precisely placed. Then in due course the printer reproduces them for me.
I have a normal electric lawn mower and for years I wasted at least a couple of hours every week in the summer, walking up and down with it. I now have a robot lawnmower which keeps the grass looking far better than I ever could manually and requires almost no involvement from me.
One of the very few things I missed when I retired was using CAD to design things and solve problems for my job. This 3d drawing and printing goes a long way towards filling that hole, for me.
Philip

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by philipy » Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:39 pm

[quote=StuartJ post_id=171016 time=1667998716 user_id=3923]


The derelict loco is Kathleen, which I think is now at the Vale of Rheidol. George Henry is still as it came out of service at Penrhyn - apparently it still has the remains of the last fire in the grate!

[/ quote]

I don't know one way or the other but the Flickr poster has the derelict loco down as George Henry?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsand ... 6829547077
Philip

User avatar
GAP
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:34 pm
Location: Bundaberg QLD Australia
Contact:

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by GAP » Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:13 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:54 pm
Peter Butler wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:57 pm
philipy wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:13 am

I get as much pleasure from drawing it up and getting it to print as I do from building it.
Those are the words I was hoping never to hear on the Forum.
Peter, I think you are missing the point that I get twice as much pleasure, not half as much, as you seem to be thinking. Some of the things I've drawn and built take longer this way than if I'd simply taken a sheet of styrene and mangled it in the time honoured way, but there is an additional satisfaction from bending the computer to my will! :lol:
Now, having spent hours drawing something up and then printing it, I have still only produced a kit which I have to build - glue, fill, sand, paint, etc. Not to mention fitting a mechanism and the electrics, which are no different to any scratchbuilt or kit built alternative. The other difference of course is that if a part doesn't fit or is prototypically incorrect, then it is MY fault and I can't swear at some anonymous kit designer!
I am quite capable of, for instance, planting dozens, if not hundreds, of rivets on a model and at the end the improvement over the original flat surface is greatly satisfying and worth the effort, but I get no actual pleasure from the act of planting the rivets. How much simpler and quicker it is to draw one rivet and, with a couple of mouse clicks, have a line of identical rivets precisely placed. Then in due course the printer reproduces them for me.
I have a normal electric lawn mower and for years I wasted at least a couple of hours every week in the summer, walking up and down with it. I now have a robot lawnmower which keeps the grass looking far better than I ever could manually and requires almost no involvement from me.
One of the very few things I missed when I retired was using CAD to design things and solve problems for my job. This 3d drawing and printing goes a long way towards filling that hole, for me.
I agree with the producing a kit statement, personally I bought my 3D printer using the justification that I could produce items that I could never afford as a kit.
My latest and largest project is a pedestrian bridge from Thingaverse that requires me to use all the skills I would use on a bought kit.
I use Thingaverse at the moment because I am just hopeless at using a CAD program (using TinkerCAD) to draw anything mainly due to a severe lack of time to be able to devote to practicing but hopefully that will change over time.
I still attempt to make things from scratch as well, I have a Garret project sitting on a shelf that is waiting for some attention, so I guess I have a foot in both camps.
Graeme
From the home of the Ringbalin Light Railway
https://ringbalin-light-railway.blogspo ... -page.html

User avatar
Peter Butler
Driver
Driver
Posts: 5219
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:33 pm
Location: West Wales

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by Peter Butler » Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:22 pm

Trevor Thompson wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:45 pm

I think that if it gets to the point that this isn't about making a real object, then the plot will have been lost. So in that respect I agree with you Peter.

Trevor
That is my point Trevor, not at all that I disapprove of the design and printing of items for use in actual construction, more that I foresee the time when the construction aspect will no longer be part of the process. Already there are virtual railway videos on Youtube, some used as promotional material, but proving the potential is available for future generations to use that as the end product.
My respect for Philip, Rik, Trevor and others who use their printers as an important tool to create their own designs in such a way as would be prohibitive by any other means, remains. It is not my intention to slight anyone who is able to do this.
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?

User avatar
StuartJ
Cleaner
Cleaner
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:39 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by StuartJ » Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:52 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:39 pm
StuartJ wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:58 pm The derelict loco is Kathleen, which I think is now at the Vale of Rheidol. George Henry is still as it came out of service at Penrhyn - apparently it still has the remains of the last fire in the grate!
[/ quote]

I don't know one way or the other but the Flickr poster has the derelict loco down as George Henry?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsand ... 6829547077
Sorry, yes. That one is George Henry. I think that was just before it was sent to the museum at Towyn.

I was thinking of these pictures of Kathleen on the scrap line:

Image
R0641 KATHLEEN Penrhyn June 1961 by Ron Fisher, on Flickr

and more recently at Aberystwyth:

Image
Kathleen by Roger Marks, on Flickr

PS if you PM me your email address I will send you a copy of the Steamlines drawing

Trevor Thompson
Trainee Driver
Trainee Driver
Posts: 964
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:30 pm
Location: South West Wales

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by Trevor Thompson » Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:53 am

philipy wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:27 pm
Trevor Thompson wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:48 pm

I see that this is mostly resin printed. It looks very good. What resin have you used?
The pictures I posted earlier are actually ALL resin. Previously I've only used standard resin for small detail parts, but the resin I have atm I bought by accident ( pressed the wrong button!). I've been very impressed with it, so as an experiment I thought I'd try it on this for more structural stuff. It's Anycubic "Tough" Translucent resin. It looks the same as their standard stuff but isn't quite as brittle ( although it will still snap if hit) and can actually be carved with a sharp knife. It is also slightly flexible after first curing but I think that gets lost as time passes. It is also an absolute swine to get off the plate if it is printed flat on the plate, rather than on a skate.
That is interesting information. I had problems with some of the things I made over a year ago - and I can't remember what resin I used then. Some of these earlier figures have "exploded" after being left outside for 2 weeks in the summer. I think I was using resins from the manufacturer of my printer - but I cant be certain. Recently I have been buying mine from "Technology Outlet" and using their own brand resins. I have settled on the ABS like resin they sell (doesn't appear on their website at the moment). I suppose that early experience has made me want to stick to a known resin - and hopefully gain confidence in it.

Trevor

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by philipy » Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:01 pm

Well, I've been experimenting and so far it seems to be getting there, whether it will work in practice remains to be seen.

I've been planning to use up motor I had spare at the end of the Contractors Loco project, a small N20 "gearmotor" with double ended output shaft. I was intending to mount it vertically in the DeWinton boiler and put a sprocket on each shaft to chain drive both axles. I always knew that the driven axle would be tight for space with the 3D printed double eccentric in the centre of the axle but I hoped that I would get away with it... Unfortunately..... :roll:

Sooo, I dusted off the brain cell again and worked out that there is actually enough room between the two eccentrics for the sprocket but then that raises the spectre of quartering if they are printed separately.
Firstly, I wondered if it would be possible to print a 'Delrin lookalike' sprocket so I measured up a genuine one and carefully drew and printed it. To my surprise it didn't look bad and the chain appeared to fit the teeth, so I modified the double eccentric drawing by pulling the ends apart and then slid the sprocket drawing into the gap and put it all together as one solid item. It took about 40 minutes to print and getting the supports off was a bit of a pain, but this is the end result.
As I say I don't know how well it will actually work and, being printed in PLA I have no idea what sort of lifespan it will have.
DSC_0001[1].png
DSC_0001[1].png (1.43 MiB) Viewed 3770 times
Philip

User avatar
StuartJ
Cleaner
Cleaner
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:39 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by StuartJ » Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:11 pm

philipy wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:01 pm I've been planning to use up motor I had spare at the end of the Contractors Loco project, a small N20 "gearmotor" with double ended output shaft. I was intending to mount it vertically in the DeWinton boiler and put a sprocket on each shaft to chain drive both axles. I always knew that the driven axle would be tight for space with the 3D printed double eccentric in the centre of the axle but I hoped that I would get away with it... Unfortunately..... :roll:
What's your experience with the gearmotors please? I have a Loco Remote Brush loco in the queue to build and, never having used one before, I'm a bit dubious about how small and delicate the gearmotor is. For example - do they stand up to garden use? Are they designed to run continously etc?

User avatar
philipy
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5033
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:00 pm
Location: South Northants

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by philipy » Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:28 pm

The motors/gears are ok although the open gearbox with their really fine gears are prone to collecting muck and jamming. I learned that lesson early on and now I print a thin resin shroud to enclose them.

They are Ok for small 0-4-0's but I doubt they would be much good in a larger loco, three or four wagons is about the limit I think. I've had one out in the garden driving the sails of a windmill for several years, though.

Graeme ( GTB of this parish) has similar experiences I think and also tend to use them in small 0-4-0 railmotors, etc.
Philip

User avatar
ge_rik
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6497
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: New project. Guess what it is....

Post by ge_rik » Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:06 am

Congratulations on getting the Delrin gear geometry right. Shows the value of learning how to use a decent 3D CAD package.
It'll be interesting to see how the mechanism stands up. Will you be using some sort of silicone grease?

Rik
------------------------
Peckforton Light Railway - Blog Facebook Youtube

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests