Austro Daimler Build project - VIDEO

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Austro Daimler Build project - VIDEO

Post by ge_rik » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:19 am

Sounds like a good candidate for a 3D printer project ...... ;)

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Austro Daimler 12A

Post by philipy » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:49 am

ge_rik wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:19 am Sounds like a good candidate for a 3D printer project ...... ;)

Rik
Yep, I've been thinking that as well. :D
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Austro Daimler.

Post by Andrew » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:58 am

I thought you 3D types might be thinking that...

It certainly is a fun and attractive prototype...

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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by StuartJ » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:18 am

Whk2000 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:26 pm I've dug the drawings out to post here, all came from various depths of the internet (as can be seen by the languages on some of them!) I've also attached two photos I find of the same loco in both the roof up and roof down position. I'm slowly doing more research into the type, with the hope of building a model eventually
Thanks very much for the drawings - very useful.

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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by Andrew » Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:55 pm

StuartJ wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:18 am
Whk2000 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:26 pm I've dug the drawings out to post here, all came from various depths of the internet (as can be seen by the languages on some of them!) I've also attached two photos I find of the same loco in both the roof up and roof down position. I'm slowly doing more research into the type, with the hope of building a model eventually
Thanks very much for the drawings - very useful.
Oooh, is this the start of another Austro Daimler?! There'll be dozens of them at this rate... You'll have to hurry to beat Philip and Rik though, they work fast...

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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by philipy » Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:12 pm

Andrew wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:55 pm

Oooh, is this the start of another Austro Daimler?! There'll be dozens of them at this rate... You'll have to hurry to beat Philip and Rik though, they work fast...
:lol: :lol: I'm rather taken by the varnished wooden body one on http://www.feldbahn.at/fahrzeuge/verbre ... aimler.php

However, nothing much I could do about any of it atm... we've just returned to Barmouth from a very pleasant visit to the Slate Museum ( Dinorwic Quarry Workshops) and Padarn Country Park!
Bonus is that SWMBO has just discovered the interest in and fascination of slate workings!!
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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by philipy » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:24 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:12 pm
However, nothing much I could do about any of it atm...
OK, so I lied!

Better than watching repeats on tv......
Screenshot 2022-08-17 21.20.23.png
Screenshot 2022-08-17 21.20.23.png (17.64 KiB) Viewed 6163 times
Obviously a lot of detail needed, but I thought it worth working out how much space would be available for motor, r/c, etc. Answer..Not very much!
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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by StuartJ » Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:48 am

Andrew wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:55 pm
StuartJ wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:18 am
Whk2000 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:26 pm I've dug the drawings out to post here, all came from various depths of the internet (as can be seen by the languages on some of them!) I've also attached two photos I find of the same loco in both the roof up and roof down position. I'm slowly doing more research into the type, with the hope of building a model eventually
Thanks very much for the drawings - very useful.
Oooh, is this the start of another Austro Daimler?! There'll be dozens of them at this rate... You'll have to hurry to beat Philip and Rik though, they work fast...
Probably not - way too many things in the queue already! Always good to have a proper drawing filed away for a rainy day though.
Having said that, it would make a nice project for a PS Models 50mm chassis....

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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by philipy » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:00 am

StuartJ wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:48 am
Having said that, it would make a nice project for a PS Models 50mm chassis....
Not too sure about that, although it would be a nice simple solution. The PS chassis is, as you say, 50mm wb but the drawings suggest 52mm for the prototype - not that I'd argue too much about 2mm :D
More importantly, the PS wheels supplied are 24mm but the drawings show them as 400mm diam, apparently over the flanges, which scales to approx 20mm in 16mm scale and gives an 18mm diam wheel. Finally the PS Chassis has the vertically mounted motor inboard of the axles, which puts it slap in the open interior where the Daimler engine should be on show.

I've been puzzling about a chassis for it myself, and the only way I can think of, is some sort of very slim motor mounted horizontally under the floor, possibly using spur gears or crown and pinion gears to get at the axles. I've been looking at coreless motors which could probably fit that requirement but they are all high revving and gearing down would be a problem with the space constraints.
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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by Andrew » Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:29 pm

Wow! I didn't think you'd move that quickly Philip, I hope we're not in trouble with Mrs Y for intruding on your holiday?!

When I first started pondering this, I think I was imagining an approximation rather than an exact replica - it's never going to be frontline motive power, more a bit of fun, so I was also thinking along the lines of the cheap PS chassis. I think those are Binnie wheels, so I guess those could be swapped for 20mm ones easily enough, but yes, the motor would come up through the floor, and the interior will be very visible. The motor's off centre though, so perhaps it could be partially concealed behind (or within?!) the driver's legs? On the other hand, if your design and engineering skills allow for a proper scale version, then go for it, I reckon! You've certainly made a great start!

Whether or not any of us ever actually build the thing, I'm very pleased that my idle web surfing and online musing (plus, of course, whk2000's drawings) have got some creative juices flowing!

Andrew.

PS Philip, enjoy Barmouth - such a lovely part of the world!

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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by philipy » Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:48 pm

Andrew wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:29 pm Wow! I didn't think you'd move that quickly Philip, I hope we're not in trouble with Mrs Y for intruding on your holiday?!


PS Philip, enjoy Barmouth - such a lovely part of the world!
No, you're Ok! Various health issues preclude us all ( 2 + dog) doing very much in the 2nd half of the day so it was welcome distraction, plus the weather has turned now, and after baking with the rest of the country up till a couple of days ago, its now typical Welsh drizzle. In fact we were just debating whether to pack up and go home today rather than wait till tomorrow morning.

Yes we have enjoyed Barmouth. :D
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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by GTB » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:03 pm

philipy wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:00 am I've been puzzling about a chassis for it myself, and the only way I can think of, is some sort of very slim motor mounted horizontally under the floor, possibly using spur gears or crown and pinion gears to get at the axles. I've been looking at coreless motors which could probably fit that requirement but they are all high revving and gearing down would be a problem with the space constraints.
That mobile bread bin is about the size of a 20HP Simplex, so it shouldn't be difficult to power it with a modern gear motor drive mounted under the floor. The motor would be on the axle centre line about where the real gearbox is located and the chassis rails would tend to hide the drive details at normal viewing angles.

The 6V 50:1 N20 gearmotor and bevel gear final drive that I use in my railmotors, or the N20 with a 50:1 worm gearbox, like the one you used in that steam powered potting shed you built recently, would do the job. Hiding the batteries and an ESC will be harder.

Incidentally, if you magnify the 3rd drawing that was posted, the wheel dia. arrow heads actually touch the wheel tread, not the flange, so commercial metal 20mm wheels would be near enough.

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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by philipy » Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:50 am

GTB wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:03 pm
philipy wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:00 am I've been puzzling about a chassis for it myself, and the only way I can think of, is some sort of very slim motor mounted horizontally under the floor, possibly using spur gears or crown and pinion gears to get at the axles. I've been looking at coreless motors which could probably fit that requirement but they are all high revving and gearing down would be a problem with the space constraints.
That mobile bread bin is about the size of a 20HP Simplex, so it shouldn't be difficult to power it with a modern gear motor drive mounted under the floor. The motor would be on the axle centre line about where the real gearbox is located and the chassis rails would tend to hide the drive details at normal viewing angles.

The 6V 50:1 N20 gearmotor and bevel gear final drive that I use in my railmotors, or the N20 with a 50:1 worm gearbox, like the one you used in that steam powered potting shed you built recently, would do the job. Hiding the batteries and an ESC will be harder.

Incidentally, if you magnify the 3rd drawing that was posted, the wheel dia. arrow heads actually touch the wheel tread, not the flange, so commercial metal 20mm wheels would be near enough.

Yes, I agree with all you've said and it is roughly what I was thinking. My only reason for looking at something other than the N20 gearmotors is that the one in my "steam powered potting shed " :D :D can barely pull itself along, not sure why.

I've been looking again at posibilities and a pair of 1:1 bevel gears does look feasible. Coupled with a 6v, 30rpm gearmotor, should give realistically low speed with hopefully enough power to pull itself along! Going with a worm drive option, the motor would output need to be faster to allow for the reduction in speed from the worm drive, which would be mechanically very inefficient overall.

From my initial sketches, limited battery capacity isn't a problem, 6xAAA Low self discharge cells (7.2v 900mAh) fit nicely across the width and just slide nicely under the horizontal section at each end, so potentially could double up at both ends if necessary. The space left in the ends would just about take a small Micron/Deltang Rx with built in ESC, or if push comes to shove, could probably juggle the underslung motor to create an Rx compartment alongside.

Having now got home and blown up that drawing on a bigger screen I can see what you mean, the arrow heads do seem to point to the wheel treads, which is actually what I would have expected and why I made a point of saying it seemed to be the O/A diameter of the flanges, originally. Thanks for pointing that out.

( Still can't work out how to make the roof go up and down though!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )
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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by ge_rik » Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:53 am

philipy wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:50 am ( Still can't work out how to make the roof go up and down though!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )
You'd also need to construct a telescopic driver to sit or stand inside ...... :? ;)

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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by GTB » Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:18 pm

philipy wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:50 am My only reason for looking at something other than the N20 gearmotors is that the one in my "steam powered potting shed " :D :D can barely pull itself along, not sure why.
I hadn't realised that little engine was so low powered. Does it just sit there and quiver if loaded up, or does it slip and fail to proceed?

If it's slipping, I'd be less surprised. It's small and light and I seem to remember you printed the wheels to get the right look. Plastic wheels have a lower coefficient of friction on metal rail than metal wheels do. 'Bullfrog Snot' gives you a diy traction tyre if you can live with the bright green colour.... :shock: . 'Star brite Liquid Electrical Tape' is the same sort of stuff (a plastisol), but is cheaper and comes in a considerably less obvious black colour. Jaycar sell it here in Oz, but it's made in the US so is probably available in the UK.

philipy wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:50 am I've been looking again at posibilities and a pair of 1:1 bevel gears does look feasible. Coupled with a 6v, 30rpm gearmotor, should give realistically low speed with hopefully enough power to pull itself along!
The sun made an appearance here today and the wind was from the north, instead of straight off the ice pack, so I did a little test running with my gang motor. It only has single axle drive, but the rail was dry and it managed to haul it's usual trolley, plus the weed killer trucks for a load of eight axles. The results may be of use.

https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12453

The gang motor weighs 260g and with the driven axle leading (worst case) managed 34g drawbar pull. The train weighed 663g and had a rolling resistance of 22g. Well within it's capability on my more or less flat track, but it would have slipped to a halt on a 1:50 grade. If both axles were powered, it would have just managed the train on a 1:30 grade.

The gang motor is fitted with a Como 951D601/6V micro gearmotor (I now use Pololu #998 6V 50:1 gearmotors). Gear ratio is 60:1 giving 300rpm at 6V at the output. The final drive is 1:1, using a pair of 0.5mod 20 tooth mitre gears (I now use a pair of 0.5mod 16T mitre gears). The final drive gearbox is milled out of a block of brass, but would probably be possible to print. I can post the back of the envelope sketch I use if needed. I work in 45 mm gauge, but the gearbox is only 21 mm wide so should fit a 32mm gauge wheelset. Probably not enough space left though, to couple the axles by chain for all wheel drive.

The gang motor has 20 mm steel wheels, from IPE I think, leftover from some early Ezee kits before I started turning my own wheels. The battery is 4 x Eneloop cells (4.8V), which gives a scale speed of 11 mph, so a 30:1 gearmotor would give you 20+mph.
philipy wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:50 am ( Still can't work out how to make the roof go up and down though!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )
The first major model railway exhibition in Melbourne for 3 years was this weekend and one of the things I saw was a HO scale bike rider furiously pedalling along a road. Nothing is impossible it would seem........

I think it would be possible to use a couple of the miniature linear rc servos used by aeromodellers (look on ebay) and some sort of linkage to raise the roof. They don't take up a lot of space, but seem to be powerful, a friend uses them to operate signals in HO.

Working out how to animate the driver to walk up, open the door and lift the roof might be a bit more of a challenge.......

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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by philipy » Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:36 pm

GTB wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:18 pm
philipy wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:50 am My only reason for looking at something other than the N20 gearmotors is that the one in my "steam powered potting shed " :D :D can barely pull itself along, not sure why.
I hadn't realised that little engine was so low powered. Does it just sit there and quiver if loaded up, or does it slip and fail to proceed?
With fully charged batteries it crawls a few yards and then stops and doesn't want to know anymore. I'm thinking the mechanical resistance is such that the motor is not far off stalling all the time,and drains the batteries to quickly.

I think the answer may have several prongs, and one of them is the wheels, both the material and more importantly the problem of keeping the drivers parallel to each other. Because the motor output shaft is rather too short, I had to print extended sleeves on the back of the wheels and they really aren't accurate enough. So they are constantly both under and over gauge and bind on the rails all the time.
GTB wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:18 pm https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12453

The gang motor weighs 260g and with the driven axle leading (worst case) managed 34g drawbar pull. The train weighed 663g and had a rolling resistance of 22g. Well within it's capability on my more or less flat track, but it would have slipped to a halt on a 1:50 grade. If both axles were powered, it would have just managed the train on a 1:30 grade.

The gang motor is fitted with a Como 951D601/6V micro gearmotor (I now use Pololu #998 6V 50:1 gearmotors). Gear ratio is 60:1 giving 300rpm at 6V at the output. The final drive is 1:1, using a pair of 0.5mod 20 tooth mitre gears (I now use a pair of 0.5mod 16T mitre gears). The final drive gearbox is milled out of a block of brass, but would probably be possible to print. I can post the back of the envelope sketch I use if needed. I work in 45 mm gauge, but the gearbox is only 21 mm wide so should fit a 32mm gauge wheelset. Probably not enough space left though, to couple the axles by chain for all wheel drive.

The gang motor has 20 mm steel wheels, from IPE I think, leftover from some early Ezee kits before I started turning my own wheels. The battery is 4 x Eneloop cells (4.8V), which gives a scale speed of 11 mph, so a 30:1 gearmotor would give you 20+mph.
Thanks for that info. I wouldn't mind seeing gearbox your sketch, please. No point in reinventing the wheel so to speak. :D
philipy wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:50 am
( Still can't work out how to make the roof go up and down though!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )
GTB wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:18 pm The first major model railway exhibition in Melbourne for 3 years was this weekend and one of the things I saw was a HO scale bike rider furiously pedalling along a road. Nothing is impossible it would seem........

I think it would be possible to use a couple of the miniature linear rc servos used by aeromodellers (look on ebay) and some sort of linkage to raise the roof. They don't take up a lot of space, but seem to be powerful, a friend uses them to operate signals in HO.

Working out how to animate the driver to walk up, open the door and lift the roof might be a bit more of a challenge.......
Well, many, many years ago, I did create a 4mm farm labourer who bent over and stuck his pitchfork into a pile of hay ( chopped sisal string) and then heaved it up on to the top of a threshing engine. Sadly it was before the days of commonly available video so I only have one slightly fuzzy still photo, but it kept the exhibition punters fascinated for hours, especially the kids! He was operated by a fairly complex cam mechanism which bent him over, pulled his arms back and jabbed down, then flicked back up!
Screenshot 2022-08-21 15.30.59.png
Screenshot 2022-08-21 15.30.59.png (1.2 MiB) Viewed 5922 times
Anyway, I do have an idea in mind for the roof raising, but thats a way down the line yet. No point in raising the roof if it won't move! Servo's would obviously work but with nowhere to hide them it would rather spoil the effect.
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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by philipy » Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:48 am

Ive been digging around looking for more pictures, as you do! :D

Came across this site with a catalogue for sale:https://fahrzeuge.dorotheum.com/en/l/2332285/
Sadly the triple picture is just too small to get any great detail when enlarged, but it does show it in ex-works condition.

I also came across this example as a static exhibit in Patagonia!!
Simplex near Neuquen.jpg
Simplex near Neuquen.jpg (203.14 KiB) Viewed 5914 times
The wheels on the skips don't look man enough to hold it off the ground, let alone rough quarry work.
Simplex near Neuquen 2.jpg
Simplex near Neuquen 2.jpg (165.69 KiB) Viewed 5914 times
What I was actually looking for is door detail. The drawings all seem to show hinged doors and the Patagonia loco definitely has hinges on the 2nd picture. However, other pictures all appear show slightly wider, sliding doors, but I can't mke it out for sure. Any thoughts anyone?
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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by philipy » Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:39 am

I think I'm beginning to understand the doors.
The earliest drawings/photo's indicate a smallish hinged door, but subsequent vesrions seem to have sliding doors which are either single or double. I suspect that this is due to the later use of physically larger engines and the need to be able to access them for maintenance.The coloured picture of a wooden bodied version definately has hinged doors, but it looks to me to be a modern restoration/rebuild so can't be taken as indicative of a working loco from the 20's/30's.
I'm thinking that the drawings showing the single hinged door will be the easiest/strongest to model since the door can be an integral part of the side if modelled closed, and that in turn will make the engine less visible and hide some of the imperfections it will undoubtedly have!
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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by GTB » Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:09 pm

philipy wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:36 pm I wouldn't mind seeing gearbox your sketch, please. No point in reinventing the wheel so to speak. :D
Herewith, one photo and one back of the envelope pencil sketch. This is the nearest I ever get to doing a drawing, it's basically just to remind me of the dimensions when machining.

The photo shows the drive fitted in the the gang motor, which was the first one I built and the only one with 20T gears. Since then I've changed to the final drive in the sketch, with 16T gears. The 0.5mod 16T mitre gears come from RS Components, stock no. 182-7986, about A$8 for a packet of 5.....

RM4-a.jpg
RM4-a.jpg (83.51 KiB) Viewed 5896 times

The sketch shows the 16T gear version, as it's slightly smaller. Makes no difference to power output, but it is only 21mm wide, which may allow just enough extra space for chain coupling the axles in 32mm gauge.

16T gearbox.jpg
16T gearbox.jpg (53.62 KiB) Viewed 5896 times

The last photo is the test train I ran the other day. No movie I'm afraid, my status as a card carrying Luddite hasn't changed. ;)

RM4-i.jpg
RM4-i.jpg (115.77 KiB) Viewed 5896 times

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: One for another day - the Austro Daimler.

Post by Andrew » Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:22 pm

I'll stay out of the mechanical chat, way beyond me, but lovely to see this progressing! That red AD's great, excellent views of the interior - and yes, the yellow skips look like shopping trolleys on those little wheels!

I've got no idea if it will work as a long-term solution, they may just ping/slide/snap off, but I've recently replaced the missing traction tyres on my Faller railbus with children's "loom bands" - this sort of thing: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Refill-Bands-c ... 53503&th=1

They've only had one trundle up the line so far - but so far, so good... I think Faller wheels are 21mm diameter, reckon the bands would stretch larger though.

By the way Graeme, I think your description of the loco as a mobile bread bin was most unfair - it looks more like a toaster...

Cheers all,

Andrew.

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