Contractors Loco Project

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Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:15 am

Following on from Rik's postings on the the subject of the weird little contractors loco from the Chingford Reservoir construction ( https://gardenrails.org/forum/viewtopic ... 78#p166478 ) I decided to have a look and see if it could make a viable project - just for the hck of it!

So having spent a couple of days playing around with Sketchup, this is where I've got to so far. There are quite a few tweaks required and the engine is just a rough approximation to check the appearance, plus obviously those huge great buffer beams are still needed.
Screenshot 2021-12-30 06.50.44.png
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It has the curly spoked wheels shown in one of the pictures ( Thanks Simon) although I can't decide if it would look better with what where the original wheels with integral balance weights?

Moving on from that, I'm struggling with two details and open to thoughts from anyone, please?
1) Clearly the 'bonnet' at the front is actually the coal bunker, but in that case where is the water tank? It could just be on the far side of the coal bunker ( there is an off centred strap on the front, which might indicate the edge of a tank ) but I can't see any sign of the filling point. The only other option I can think of is a well tank, but there doesn't seem to be enough depth to the chassis.
2) The other thing that is puzzling me is, as Andrew pointed out, there seems to have been a chain drive between the axles, but I can't see how/where the pistons would have been to get the drive to one of the axles to begin with?

For info, its footprint 170x74mm over the body
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:18 am

I did a test print of one side, earlier yesterday, just to see how it looked and decide if it was worth carrying on with.

Bearing in mind recent posts about PLA vs ABS, I then used exactly the same stl and changed the temperature settings from PLA to ABS but left everything else the same, and did another print out of curiosity. Then to complete the set I used the same stl to do a resin print.

The PLA & ABS took just under 2 hours each, but the Resin took 12 hours, not unexpectedly. Also the model is really too big for the resin printer, even angling it to squeeze it in, the print was touching the bottom of the tank at full stretch and deformed somewhat.
So, the picture shows the PLA at the top, ABS in the centre and resin at the bottom. The first two are shown on the printer after it had finished and as can be seen there are no rafts/brims, etc and there is no glue or tape on the bed, which has been in use for about a year, and there were no adhesion problems.
For detail, there isn't a lot to choose between the first two, although I think the PLA gave a better finish to the flat sides of the 'bonnet'.
The resin had better fine detail as you woudl expect, the rivets being much neater and cleaner and the board grooves better defined.
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by Jimmyb » Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:22 am

Phil, looking at the photo and your drawing, it would seem inside the cab may be missing something. Through the doorway on the floor you can see a person's foot, and the depth of the floor seems to be just wider, suggesting there is a container along the far wall, which the two men are leaning on, could this be the water tank.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:28 am

Yes, looking at the photos there is a lot of gubbins in the cab ( you can just about make out safety valve and brake quadrant, and there must be assorted valves and reverser, etc, plus pipework), but I haven't got that far yet! I did wonder about the water tank being at the back, but because the wheelbase is so far forward, I think the water tank being right at the back would cause COG issues, which is why I more or less dismissed that idea.
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by ge_rik » Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:43 pm

Looking at the second photo in its derelict state, it doesn't seem to show there was a tank on the far side of the cab unless for some reason it's been removed. I wonder if the bunker only took up half of the structure at the front and the rest was water tank as you suggest? Or maybe that pipe takes water from a tank at the back of the cab to the boiler??

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:34 pm

ge_rik wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:43 pm I wonder if the bunker only took up half of the structure at the front and the rest was water tank as you suggest? Or maybe that pipe takes water from a tank at the back of the cab to the boiler??
I do think that is the most likely option, although I can't see that it would hold much water- if my calcs are correct it's capacicty would have been about 115 gallons.
The big pipe running from the top of the boiler towards the rear, seems to be crudely lagged where the chap is leaning on it, which implies that it gets hot, so not tank water! It also looks as though there could be a flexible pipe hanging down at the the end, so it might be a steam hose?

The big puzzle, although not really important for a model, is where were the cylinders/pistons/valve gear?
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by GTB » Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:23 pm

philipy wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:34 pm The big puzzle, although not really important for a model, is where were the cylinders/pistons/valve gear?
Ummmm.....

Looking at the second photo of the 'Thing' in a semi-derelict state, there is a small two cylinder vertical steam engine smack in the middle of the cab. To use an Aust. saying, 'if it was a dog it would have bit you......' It's mounted transversely and more or less over the rear axle and there is a transverse shaft also visible beside it. It's possible that's a layshaft for the drive chains. The large visible pipe is the exhaust steam pipe to the chimney. The inlet steam pipe is smaller and vaguely visible in the first photo, running from the boiler to the engine.

Not sure about the water tank, as there is no water filler on the tank at the front. There may be another tank at the back of the cab with a filler, as there is something visible through the gap at the bottom of the cab walls. The crew in the first photo hide most of whats in the cab, but the fireman seems to be propped against the engine. Must have been a cold day.

The style of steam engine suggests it came out of a steam launch, which may also be the source of the boiler.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:28 pm

Aaaah.. thanks Graeme. Yet another fine example of somebody on this board always knows the answer!

GTB wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:23 pm

Looking at the second photo of the 'Thing' in a semi-derelict state, there is a small two cylinder vertical steam engine smack in the middle of the cab.
The square thing with bolts round the edge and a small dome in the centre?
GTB wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:23 pm
Not sure about the water tank, as there is no water filler on the tank at the front.
No I agree, thats why I wasn't sure it would be there, originally.
GTB wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:23 pm
There may be another tank at the back of the cab with a filler, as there is something visible through the gap at the bottom of the cab walls.
Yes, on the LHS and rear, but not on the RHS where the cladding has been removed. I'd have throught that a tank big enough to hold a reasonable amount of water would show in the open side RH view. I had guessed that the crew might have put a board in those gaps to keep the draft out!
GTB wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:23 pm
The style of steam engine suggests it came out of a steam launch, which may also be the source of the boiler.
P'raps they were planning to use it on the water once the reservoir was finished! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by SimonWood » Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:11 pm

Great to see someone modelling this already - it was inevitable after Rik posted that photo! And happy to have helped even if only in a incredibly minor way. I can offer no insight as to where the water tank is, I agree the second photo shows it's not the side of the cab. I also think that whole area at the front would be quite a large coal bunker if dedicated purely to that so if I'd be inclined to agree with the suggestion that the water tank is up there and that the filler is hidden or obscured somehow.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:12 pm

This photo is the back LH corner enlarged 300% ! Its gettinga bit pixelated at this magnification, but it does show that there is something inside. However to my eyes it appears to be (a) slightly curved and (b) to have a flat top held by bolts, plus it would only be about 6" high - I can't see any sign of it going below the floor?
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by GTB » Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:16 am

philipy wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:28 pm The square thing with bolts round the edge and a small dome in the centre?
That's one of the steam chests. There are two cylinders behind it the gloom, with the other steam chest behind those. The Stephensons valve gear and support columns can be seen below the steam chest and there will be another set at the other end.

Couldn't find a decent photo of a launch engine online with a quick search, but Stuart Models still make a kit for a typical example, which will give you the idea of what it looks like.

https://www.stuartmodels.com/item/63/st ... unmachined

I doubt this thing could pull much of a load and it probably never strayed far from a source of coal and water. Maybe it was the site workshops shunter, doing the sort of work that would be done today by a small forklift.

The object vaguely visible through the gap under the cab looks like a baulk of timber for mounting something. The second photo shows the loco in a derelict state, the missing cab side may have been demolished to remove something bulky inside.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:31 am

Thanks Graeme.
I also had a look online for pictures of the real thing, but all I could find was the Turner model and similar.

The thing behind the opening does look like timber, which is why I originally thought it was just a piece of board as a draft excluder. However it definitely has a piece of metal on top and some bolts, with something else showing behind the bolts. So I'm wondering if that is actually piece of angle iron, as a bracket to locate/fix a tank, sitting on a couple of small baulks.

It's a good thought about the missing side. I'm currently looking to fit motor and gears in the bonnet, 3 x AA batteries in the firebox/boiler and so, since nobody can tell me different, I'll cobble up a 'water tank' in the back end to hold R/C etc.
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by Andrew » Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:31 pm

I'm enjoying this one, it's going to make a fascinating model...

A couple of things struck me looking at the pictures. One was that, with the boiler, coal bunker and possibly the water tank at one end, might the "cab" end be a little light - and so could the thing on the floor be a balance weight?

And the other was how clean it is, considering its environment. Not all of it, the ends are pretty grotty, but the cab and bunker sides seem quite clean, and there's some shine on some of the boiler fittings. It made me wonder whether the loco's crew were actually quite proud of their quirky steed...

Looking forward to seeing it progress,

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by GTB » Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:59 am

philipy wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:31 am So I'm wondering if that is actually piece of angle iron, as a bracket to locate/fix a tank, sitting on a couple of small baulks.
I was looking at the second photo again and realised the rivetted box at the front can't be a water tank, as the rivets aren't spaced closely enough to be water tight. If it was a water tank, the rivet heads along the corner seams would be almost touching.

The only other place a water tank could be located is inside the cab. It wouldn't be very big, but there'd be plenty of water supplies around a reservoir site in the land of liquid sunshine. The cab is pretty airy, so accessing a filler in the cab wouldn't pose a problem. The tank probably doubled as the drivers seat......

Squeezing in all the electrickery should be interesting, as the contraption isn't much bigger than the gang motor I use for the weed killing train. I assume you'll be coupling the wheels with a chain?

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:18 pm

I think I may be getting closer to understanding whats going on with this loco. Weird as it may seem, I now suspect that there are two different locos in these 4 pictures.
The two small pictures showing both sides are presumably both sides of the same loco. The larger picture of the LH side is obviously a better version of the same side in the small pictures.
The larger picture in a derelict state shows a number of obvious differences once you look closely:
1) The derelict RHS pic shows the rear wheels about an equal distance from the rear buffer beam as the front wheels are from the front beam. However the large picture of the LHS shows quite clearly that the rear wheels are only just behind the boiler witha large rear over hang.
2) The smokebox catches and hinge line are different in the derelict pic to the RHS in the small pic.
3) On the derelict pic, the chimney is a straight pipe from top to bottom, with a couple of joint lines, but in the small picture there is a definite taper on the bottom section where it joins the smokebox.
4) As Graeme pointed out, in the derelict pic, the vertical launch type engine is more or less above the rear axle. However looking at the small picture of the RHS there are two men standing between the engine and the back wall of the cab, which they couldn't do if there was a water tank there, unless the engine was in a different position.
5) Finally, the derelict pic shows the curly spoke wheels whereas the small pics both show two integral balance weights on the wheels both sides. We talked about this early on, and it is possible that they curlys were somehow replacements, but I'm now wondering if they were original on one version of the loco...or perhaps it was rebuilt with 'proper' wheels and an extended wheelbase?

Graeme, yes, chain drive is part of the plan, although there won't be much clearance underneath it!
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:33 am

Slightly off-topic but I've been looking on-line in hopes of finding more info on the loco, without success. However, I did find this article from the Mail, with some amazing and fascinating pictures of Victorian/Edwardian public water works constructions in London. Well worth a look.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... twork.html

I am more than ever convinced that there are ether two locos or one that had a major rebuild along the way. The front wheels position seems to be approximately the same on both versions but the rear wheels and rear footplate overhang is very different. As a result, I'm now not quite sure which version I'm building, but I suspect its something of a mongrel!
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by GTB » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:13 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:33 am I am more than ever convinced that there are ether two locos or one that had a major rebuild along the way.
Being a skeptic and a believer in 'Occam's Razor', the latter I think. If there had been two of them, they would have been lined up together with their crews when the photographer from 'The Engineer' came to call.

I had a play around with enhancing the two larger photos with the results below.

If you look closely at the second pic, you can just see the steam chest of the engine behind the left hand of the bloke on the left. He is propped up against the steam pipe and the crew have draped one of the weather curtains over the pipe, presumably so they don't get burnt when the loco is running. The regulator is visible on the steam pipe a bit further to the right in the picture. There seems to be a cover on this end of the engine, presumably for the drive chain.

The other bloke in the cab is jammed awkwardly into the corner and is standing on something, presumably the water tank, as there's no other logical reason to raise the cab floor. Either he is wearing bowyangs, or there is a control wheel in front of his right knee. I thought it might be a handbrake wheel, but there is no evidence of brake shoes on either version....... :shock:

There is something visible under the rear of the cab in the later photo., but not enough detail to work out what it is.

The engine doesn't appear to have moved position, but the rear axle has been moved back, reducing the rear overhang. The curly spoked wheels are larger and the loco sits higher off the track. Why they fitted larger wheels can only be speculated about, but the rear axle would have needed to be moved back to fit them, as the original ex loco wheels were smaller and the rear wheel was very close to the ashpan. The enhanced photo shows evidence of the remains of a crankpin in the original wheels, so they came off something that had very small coupled driving wheels.

Given the apparent lack of brakes and that this beast was used on a civil engineering project, the likely reason it needed a major rebuild would be that it came to grief in a derailment, or a collision. The original frame looks very light, just a few bits of angle iron, so may have been easier to replace than repair.

One of the small photos of the original shows a hinged flap smokebox door. Those things were notorious for leaking, which may be why it was replaced with a bolted on plate. Although given the vulnerable position of the smokebox, it may not have survived a derailment either. The chimney looks larger as well.

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If your line had bought the remains shown in the later photo, I should think it would need major workshop attention to run again. It was no thoroughbred when first built, so a third version seems likely if it was revived for another project.

Graeme

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by ge_rik » Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:43 pm

Absolutely fascinating. I had no idea the original photo would generate such interest - it's very gratifying.

I like the way they've split a couple of photos on the Mail website to show old and new.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by metalmuncher » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:07 pm

GTB wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:13 pm or there is a control wheel in front of his right knee. I thought it might be a handbrake wheel, but there is no evidence of brake shoes on either version....... :shock:
I noticed that too, I was wondering if that handwheel screwed the block of wood directly underneath it down onto the track to act as a brake - there is a bit a dirt patch on the block that seems to line up with the rail. Maybe that arm behind the rear wheel on the other side was the pivot to allow the block to move up and down? Or that arm could have just been for a normal brake shoe acting on the wheel.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by Peter Butler » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:38 pm

I'm probably way out of my depth here, but could there have been some kind of transmission brake system acting on the drive chain?
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