Contractors Loco Project

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:33 am

Slightly off-topic but I've been looking on-line in hopes of finding more info on the loco, without success. However, I did find this article from the Mail, with some amazing and fascinating pictures of Victorian/Edwardian public water works constructions in London. Well worth a look.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... twork.html

I am more than ever convinced that there are ether two locos or one that had a major rebuild along the way. The front wheels position seems to be approximately the same on both versions but the rear wheels and rear footplate overhang is very different. As a result, I'm now not quite sure which version I'm building, but I suspect its something of a mongrel!
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by GTB » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:13 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:33 am I am more than ever convinced that there are ether two locos or one that had a major rebuild along the way.
Being a skeptic and a believer in 'Occam's Razor', the latter I think. If there had been two of them, they would have been lined up together with their crews when the photographer from 'The Engineer' came to call.

I had a play around with enhancing the two larger photos with the results below.

If you look closely at the second pic, you can just see the steam chest of the engine behind the left hand of the bloke on the left. He is propped up against the steam pipe and the crew have draped one of the weather curtains over the pipe, presumably so they don't get burnt when the loco is running. The regulator is visible on the steam pipe a bit further to the right in the picture. There seems to be a cover on this end of the engine, presumably for the drive chain.

The other bloke in the cab is jammed awkwardly into the corner and is standing on something, presumably the water tank, as there's no other logical reason to raise the cab floor. Either he is wearing bowyangs, or there is a control wheel in front of his right knee. I thought it might be a handbrake wheel, but there is no evidence of brake shoes on either version....... :shock:

There is something visible under the rear of the cab in the later photo., but not enough detail to work out what it is.

The engine doesn't appear to have moved position, but the rear axle has been moved back, reducing the rear overhang. The curly spoked wheels are larger and the loco sits higher off the track. Why they fitted larger wheels can only be speculated about, but the rear axle would have needed to be moved back to fit them, as the original ex loco wheels were smaller and the rear wheel was very close to the ashpan. The enhanced photo shows evidence of the remains of a crankpin in the original wheels, so they came off something that had very small coupled driving wheels.

Given the apparent lack of brakes and that this beast was used on a civil engineering project, the likely reason it needed a major rebuild would be that it came to grief in a derailment, or a collision. The original frame looks very light, just a few bits of angle iron, so may have been easier to replace than repair.

One of the small photos of the original shows a hinged flap smokebox door. Those things were notorious for leaking, which may be why it was replaced with a bolted on plate. Although given the vulnerable position of the smokebox, it may not have survived a derailment either. The chimney looks larger as well.

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If your line had bought the remains shown in the later photo, I should think it would need major workshop attention to run again. It was no thoroughbred when first built, so a third version seems likely if it was revived for another project.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by ge_rik » Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:43 pm

Absolutely fascinating. I had no idea the original photo would generate such interest - it's very gratifying.

I like the way they've split a couple of photos on the Mail website to show old and new.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by metalmuncher » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:07 pm

GTB wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:13 pm or there is a control wheel in front of his right knee. I thought it might be a handbrake wheel, but there is no evidence of brake shoes on either version....... :shock:
I noticed that too, I was wondering if that handwheel screwed the block of wood directly underneath it down onto the track to act as a brake - there is a bit a dirt patch on the block that seems to line up with the rail. Maybe that arm behind the rear wheel on the other side was the pivot to allow the block to move up and down? Or that arm could have just been for a normal brake shoe acting on the wheel.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by Peter Butler » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:38 pm

I'm probably way out of my depth here, but could there have been some kind of transmission brake system acting on the drive chain?
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by GTB » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:43 am

Peter Butler wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:38 pm I'm probably way out of my depth here, but could there have been some kind of transmission brake system acting on the drive chain?
Possibly. Early road vehicles often had transmission brakes, model T Fords for instance. A bit problematic with a chain drive though, as a shock load can cause the chain to jump off the sprocket, then there is no braking at all.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:00 am

Progressing slowly with drawing up bits and pieces. Its a bit of a struggle trying to get the proportions correct, but I think I'm gettig there now. I'm now ignoring the derelict photo since I think it was just confusing things, and I'm just going with the original large photo's and the two together.

I have cobbled up a sort of generic schematic 2 cyl, vertical engine, based on various photo's. It is completely lacking any fine detail, including valve gear (!), but in the cramped gloom inside this thing, I'm hoping it will give the right sort of general impression.
The attached screen shot shows a detail from the large photo,plus my current drawing posed at the same sort of angle.
( I still have to add detail to the front of the firebox and ash pan etc and try to guess the dome, safety valve etc.)
Screenshot 2022-01-07 06.39.55.png
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by GTB » Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:44 am

philipy wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:00 am ( I still have to add detail to the front of the firebox and ash pan etc and try to guess the dome, safety valve etc.)
Looks reasonable to me........

If you prop one of the crew against the engine, you won't see much of it.

The boiler has a Salter spring safety valve on top of the dome, mostly under that polished brass trumpet cover, but the spring column is just visible beside the cover. Presumably there's a hole in the roof for steam to escape, unless the loco doubled as a mobile sauna. 8)

There also seems to be a peanut whistle on the roof more or less above the dome. There's visible steam near it, so either it was being blown while the photo was being taken, or the safety valve opened.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:24 am

GTB wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:44 am
philipy wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:00 am ( I still have to add detail to the front of the firebox and ash pan etc and try to guess the dome, safety valve etc.)
Looks reasonable to me........

If you prop one of the crew against the engine, you won't see much of it.

The boiler has a Salter spring safety valve on top of the dome, mostly under that polished brass trumpet cover, but the spring column is just visible beside the cover. Presumably there's a hole in the roof for steam to escape, unless the loco doubled as a mobile sauna. 8)

There also seems to be a peanut whistle on the roof more or less above the dome. There's visible steam near it, so either it was being blown while the photo was being taken, or the safety valve opened.

Graeme
Thanks Graeme, Yes, I agree with what you said here.
I've also drawn up a short intermediate drive shaft ( at least I think thats what it is ) which is just visible between the engine and boiler in the derelict shot. I assume it was a double chain system to transfer the drive down to the axle through a hole in the floor. I'm guessing that the chain hanging out of the side is from this.
It will just add a bit more 'busy-ness', I think, plus some bits of pipework.

I'm also planning on the water tank at the back being a battery box, either 4 or 5 Eneloops.
Screenshot 2022-01-07 11.27.12.png
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by Phil.P » Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:46 pm

Just to throw a spanner in the works :

Could the 'derelict' have had axles, etc. removed, and what was left, dropped on something-like a skip/tipper chassis?

Just thought it might explain the disparate axle spacings.. It would seem a lot of work to have made the changes.

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:49 pm

I guess it's possible Phil, but I still think a rebuild is more likely. There are too many other discrepancies that wouldn't be accounted for by that.
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:55 pm

metalmuncher wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:07 pm
GTB wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:13 pm or there is a control wheel in front of his right knee. I thought it might be a handbrake wheel, but there is no evidence of brake shoes on either version....... :shock:
I noticed that too, ...
I've been playing with enlarging and then adjusting the contrast, etc, settings on the big photo. Actually I was trying to see what sort of underframe there was and the conclusion seems to be that there was no real underfame/chassis at all, because you can see right through under the footplate level. If there is something though, it must be a very small section U or L steel.

However as an aside, a couple of other details became apparent from this:
The chain that runs under the footplate to the front wheels, and which I assumed was a drive chain, can't be that at all because it seems to head above the front axle and disappears up under the ashpan somehow, apparently heading above the rear axle, plus there is no return loop chain. So, I wonder if the loco only had a single driven axle? Then, I wonder if that chain is actually a brake operating chain, somehow?
I tried playing with the photo of the other sde and there just might be a chain between the axles on this side but the picture gets so pixelated that it's impossible to be certain of anything.

Anyway, I've been pushing on with drawings, and printing things, and I should be able to start putting it together shortly.
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:52 am

Monday morning update:
Most of the components are now printed, although they all need cleaning up to a greater or lesser degree.
This is the kit waiting to be worked on.
DSC_0001.JPG
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by Peter Butler » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:39 am

Now that's impressive! Working out what the components are is one thing, but making them fit is quite another... good luck.
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by GTB » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:46 am

philipy wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:55 pm The chain that runs under the footplate to the front wheels, and which I assumed was a drive chain, can't be that at all because it seems to head above the front axle and disappears up under the ashpan somehow, apparently heading above the rear axle, plus there is no return loop chain. So, I wonder if the loco only had a single driven axle?
Parallax makes it hard to determine from the photos exactly what the drive arrangement is and exactly where the chain is located. Photographers never consider future modellers........... :roll:

The logical arrangement (Occam's Razor again) is that each driving axle has it's own driving chain from the counter shaft beside the engine and that the front one runs behind the ashpan and under the boiler to the counter shaft on the cab floor. Presumably the axle boxes were part of a pedestal that could be adjusted back and forth to keep the chain tensioned. It looks overdue to be tightened in the photo.

I think the chain is likely over towards the smokebox side of the loco and the axle sprocket is fairly small, which would fit what can be seen. The upper part of the drive chain is lost in the gloom up near the floor. Unless they used a couple of jockey sprockets, it would have passed at an angle through a slot in the floor, under the boiler.

Two individual axle drive chains would mean it would have to break both chains to be completely disabled. The wee beastie is small and light, so single axle drive would make it hard pressed to move much more than it's own weight.

None of which is of much relevance to a working model, where you have to fit things in where you can find the space.

You are certainly making progress and it will be an interesting model when complete.

Graeme

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by Lonsdaler » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:27 pm

Hi Philip,
A fascinating build and some excellent research on a difficult to track project. The origin of the steam engine fascinated me and drew me down a veritable rabbit hole :lol:
I have found many excellent pictures of various launches, but none with the arrangement of a horizontal firebox/boiler. However, one in particular yielded some excellent detail photographs of the various elements of the drive train. I've pasted a link below; whilst it is a vertical boiler, the rest of the components should offer inspiration for any further detailing you choose to do. I'm really looking forward to seeing the finished product! :thumbup:
https://www.stationroadsteam.com/steam- ... screen/11/
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:27 pm

Thanks Phil. I have investigated that particular rabbit hole myself! I looked at the StationRoad Steam site as well. TBH, I'm not aiming to get that detailed, as long as it looks something like, that will be good enough for this one. It's only a bit of fun and I'd guess won't really get much of a run.
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by Lonsdaler » Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:19 pm

Fair enough if you've already been there :lol: But just imagine the detail that could go into the same subject at 5" or even 7 1/4"😱
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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by GTB » Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:39 am

philipy wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:27 pm I have investigated that particular rabbit hole myself!
I finally found the entrance to the rabbit hole I was looking for............

http://www.consuta.org.uk/workshop/Technical.html

At 50', with a 100hp steam plant and a water speed of +20 knots, the preserved Consuta is a bit bigger than the machinery in the little loco, but it shows the sort of thing I was suggesting.

This is not a putt-putt work boat like the African Queen with a vertical boiler and a single cylinder engine. More an expensive toy for the late Victorian chinless classes to hoon around in on the river.

The printed engine looks about right to me for what it needs to do. Unless we keep our inner finescale modeller on a short leash we never finish anything. 8)

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Re: Contractors Loco Project

Post by philipy » Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:51 am

Thanks once more Graeme.
Yes that does look generally similar to what I've printed. The backhead also looks very similar to the loco, which is reassuring. I've been trying to draw the pipework ( a representation again) based on the photo. It's drawn, stl'd, and sliced, but awaiting printer time later on today hopefully, to see if it works. However the slicer kept objecting to the fineness of what I was wanting to print, so I don't have a lot of optimism. :lol:
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