Buying a 3D printer

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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by ge_rik » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:59 am

1mm seems a very large gap to me - the height should be no more than the thickness of a sheet of paper.
I'm sure you've probably already tried this but there are a few videos on YouTube about bed levelling specific to the Ender 3 - eg - https://youtu.be/_EfWVUJjBdA
This chap seems to know what he's talking about.

It does sound as if you're having more of a problem than should normally be the case. Once the bed has been levelled, it does get easier - I promise... :lol:
If you're still running into problems I could pop round to see my mate who has an Ender 3 to see if he has any specific advice.

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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by philipy » Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:30 am

GAP wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:29 am
Z axis end stop was adjusted 3 times so nozzle was about 1mm above plate.
The "leveling" with the printer paper was done at least 10 times, I spent nearly 2 hours trying to get a print started.
I think there is your problem. My m/c (Qidi) came with a thin piece of plastic on which is printed "Levelling paper". I've just checked with micrometer and it is 0.25mm thick, so your 1mm sounds very much too high. For reference a piece of Tesco best printer paper came in at 0.11mm. The major cause of print problems I've found, is getting that gap right. Too big and you get spaghetti, too small and it smears and even drags the nozzle on the bed.
GAP wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:29 am The bed was preheated to 60C with nozzle at 200C, a setting in the Ender "prepare" menu
Thats sounds fine for PLA in my experience.
GAP wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:29 am The bed seems to be closer than 1mm to the plate.
As I've said above, but you need to know what it is. Find a piece of 0.25mm plasticard and use that.
GAP wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:29 am If I adjust one side of the plate till it is "just right" when I move over to the other side the nozzle hits the plate till I adjust the opposite side, the same for the front to back adjustment.
I just go round and round and adjust each one in turn over and over as any change of one screw throws out all the others.
I think there was some discussion of this a couple of weeks back. If memory serves, you have 4 levelling screws on the Ender? I only have 3, which brings its own problems but they are different to a 4 screw version, so I can't really suggest the best way to tackle it.
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by GAP » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:14 pm

Trevor Thompson wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:28 am
-steves- wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:12 pm
GAP wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:48 am The Ender has come!!!

I have finally taken delivery of an Ender 3 V2, I had to wait till stocks arrived to fill my pre order.

I am slowly assembling it and should be up and running next week, if life would just stop getting in the road.

My first prints will probably some LGB type bogies, I found some stl files on Thingaverse, to replace the home made ones I have on 6 wagons at present.

I am thinking of using ABS filament.

Does anybody know what type of filament comes in the box with the printer?
It is standard PLA in the box. As you have an Ender 3, it is not enclosed and you may have issues printing with ABS. Trevor on here loves the stuff but that isn't the case for most of us, it is a bit of a black art to print with ABS, especially for first prints. I would go with the PLA to start and see how you get on and then decide. Just my point of view :thumbup:
I don't know anything about types of printer other than the one I have. But printing with ABS requires specific conditions: bed plate heated to 100 degrees C, extruder at 230 degrees, and a FULLY enclosed build area. I suggest that the printer you have is not suitable for printing ABS.

Trevor
There are 2 preheat settings on the Ender3 V2 PLA and ABS which is why I am looking at ABS
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by -steves- » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:24 pm

GAP wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:14 pm
There are 2 preheat settings on the Ender3 V2 PLA and ABS which is why I am looking at ABS
Yes it has the preheat settings, as does my Ender 5 and my Ender 6 (the 6 is a mainly enclosed printer) but I still wouldn't go with ABS as they are not FULLY enclosed. Just stick with PLA or PLA+ for now (I always use PLA+) and if you want more, then try PETG and see how you get on with that.

As mentioned, the first layer height is absolutely critical for everything.
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by -steves- » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:29 pm

Also it can be worth winding the levelling screws down tighter before you do the levelling as the board can move otherwise.

Never had an Ender 3 myself, but I am assuming you have to set the Z offset like the Ender 5 and then save the settings?
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by GAP » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:38 pm

-steves- wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:29 pm Also it can be worth winding the levelling screws down tighter before you do the levelling as the board can move otherwise.

Never had an Ender 3 myself, but I am assuming you have to set the Z offset like the Ender 5 and then save the settings?
I did read somewhere about tightening the screw, think it was on here, I will attempt to start over again using some of the suggestions.
A couple of screw knobs seem to have no resistance to turning unlike other that have some tension.
The bed may need cleaning as it has just had the protective sheet removed and that may have left some residue.

There is a Z axis offset setting but I have not touched it (set to 0) as I do not know what it does.
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by GAP » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:39 pm

-steves- wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:24 pm
GAP wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:14 pm
There are 2 preheat settings on the Ender3 V2 PLA and ABS which is why I am looking at ABS
Yes it has the preheat settings, as does my Ender 5 and my Ender 6 (the 6 is a mainly enclosed printer) but I still wouldn't go with ABS as they are not FULLY enclosed. Just stick with PLA or PLA+ for now (I always use PLA+) and if you want more, then try PETG and see how you get on with that.

As mentioned, the first layer height is absolutely critical for everything.
Have not heard of PLA+ so another bit of research required.
Talk about the dark side being challenging. :shock:
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by GAP » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:03 am

There be 3D prints here!!!

After looking at some more youtube videos I have successfully 'leveled' the bed and adjusted the Z axis offset (0.1 for one and 0.13 for the other) for the printer and have successfully printed the 2 test prints that came with the printer on an SD card.

Next step along the path to the dark side is to;
  • 'slice' the .stl files that I have in Tinkercad using the Creality Slicer that came with the printer
  • then transfer them to an SD card
  • then to start printing a bogie for a wagon
How hard can this be????? :( :(
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by Jimmyb » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:56 am

GAP wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:03 am
  • then to start printing a bogie for a wagon
How hard can this be????? :( :(
It's a simple one line comment, so must be easy ;)

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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by Lonsdaler » Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:52 pm

GAP wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:03 am There be 3D prints here!!!

After looking at some more youtube videos I have successfully 'leveled' the bed and adjusted the Z axis offset (0.1 for one and 0.13 for the other) for the printer and have successfully printed the 2 test prints that came with the printer on an SD card.

Next step along the path to the dark side is to;
  • 'slice' the .stl files that I have in Tinkercad using the Creality Slicer that came with the printer
  • then transfer them to an SD card
  • then to start printing a bogie for a wagon
How hard can this be????? :( :(
You do realise that half of the 'not yet got a 3d printer' forum members are following your progress before making the leap themselves? No pressure :lol:
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by Peter Butler » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:45 pm

On the other hand it has just proved to me what a complete nightmare it all is and that I have been correct in my decision all along not to buy one!
The best things in life are free.... so why am I doing this?

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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by philipy » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:30 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:45 pm On the other hand it has just proved to me what a complete nightmare it all is and that I have been correct in my decision all along not to buy one!
You won't be surprised that I totally disagree, Peter :lol:
Like anything else, it takes a bit of practice to get to grips with something new and of course sometimes it never does turn out satisfactorily. Something that you find very easy and I always have trouble with, is paint mixing to get the right colour. I've been trying to crack that particular technique for about 60 odd years with little or no success but I keep trying! :D
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by GAP » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:51 pm

philipy wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:30 pm
Peter Butler wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:45 pm On the other hand it has just proved to me what a complete nightmare it all is and that I have been correct in my decision all along not to buy one!
You won't be surprised that I totally disagree, Peter :lol:
Like anything else, it takes a bit of practice to get to grips with something new and of course sometimes it never does turn out satisfactorily. Something that you find very easy and I always have trouble with, is paint mixing to get the right colour. I've been trying to crack that particular technique for about 60 odd years with little or no success but I keep trying! :D
I have to agree after the bad day on Tuesday, I had some 1:1 train therapy on Wednesday and yesterday (Thursday) I started right from the beginning again.
I looked at some other videos before starting to get other opinions and found one that described how to do the Z stop adjustment a different way. After that the bed leveling went smoothly and the test prints were a success.
I guess I was living up to Einstein's description of insanity “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

My next step is mastering the slicer and starting a print for a bogie.
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by GAP » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:15 pm

-steves- wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:29 pm Also it can be worth winding the levelling screws down tighter before you do the levelling as the board can move otherwise.

Never had an Ender 3 myself, but I am assuming you have to set the Z offset like the Ender 5 and then save the settings?
Regarding the springs this is one of the videos I watched and the person recommended replacing the springs with a different type that do not buckle under compression to improve efficiency.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JSa_r8xgX8

This is the other and again compressing the springs was recommended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypb1OUII9Nw

I used the method in the top video to set the z axis switch and a combination of both to level the bed.

I adjusted the z offset after watching the print quality and on the 2 items I printed (the dog and cat that came presliced on the printers SD card) and adjust accordingly, 0.1 and 0.13 respectively, to get a smooth print.

My other big mistake was I started printing immediately instead of letting the bed and nozzle temperatures stabilise, applying a bit of patience instead jumping in boots and all and things just started to work.

I did notice that when the print started a line was laid down on the extreme edge of the bed before the nozzle moved to the centre, I am guessing that this is to get the filament ready to print.

Update;
When I went to Jaycar to buy some filament they have a Creality Dual Filament 3D Printer CR-X and it has the recommended springs fitted, guessing Creality have upgrade to these type of springs.
Last edited by GAP on Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by philipy » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:06 am

GAP wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:15 pm
My other big mistake was I started printing immediately instead of letting the bed and nozzle temperatures stabilise, applying a bit of patience instead jumping in boots and all and things just started to work.


I did notice that when the print started a line was laid down on the extreme edge of the bed before the nozzle moved to the centre, I am guessing that this is to get the filament ready to print.
I'm surprised your m/c programming allows the print to start before the temps stabilise - I'm no expert but I wonder if your G Code is a bit corrupted?
With my m/c I press start and it does all sorts of moving to check/set the bed height and x & y zero's, etc, before the head moves to the front left corner for a couple of minutes and sits there with the filament slowly oozing as the nozzle temp increases, and at the same ltime the display shows the bed temp also increasing. Only when both are within operating limits does the head move back to the bed and then it first lays down a long line the full length and half a return length of the front edge of the bed before moving over to start actually printing.
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by GAP » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:18 am

philipy wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:06 am
GAP wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:15 pm
My other big mistake was I started printing immediately instead of letting the bed and nozzle temperatures stabilise, applying a bit of patience instead jumping in boots and all and things just started to work.


I did notice that when the print started a line was laid down on the extreme edge of the bed before the nozzle moved to the centre, I am guessing that this is to get the filament ready to print.
I'm surprised your m/c programming allows the print to start before the temps stabilise - I'm no expert but I wonder if your G Code is a bit corrupted?
With my m/c I press start and it does all sorts of moving to check/set the bed height and x & y zero's, etc, before the head moves to the front left corner for a couple of minutes and sits there with the filament slowly oozing as the nozzle temp increases, and at the same time the display shows the bed temp also increasing. Only when both are within operating limits does the head move back to the bed and then it first lays down a long line the full length and half a return length of the front edge of the bed before moving over to start actually printing.
Bit more experimenting today and you are correct the print will not start till the nozzle and the bed temperature have reached the operating point.

Another bit of trial and error resulted in me learning about how the Z axis offset worked (I think) the pictures below show the same file printed with the offset at 0.1, 0.13 and 0.00, I am surmising that a positive number moves the nozzle closer to the print so conversely a negative number will move it away.

The line down the side of the bed I think is a default before a print to ensure the nozzle is extruding correctly and bed adhesion is OK.

offset 0.1
P1060466.JPG
P1060466.JPG (104.26 KiB) Viewed 2127 times
offset 0.13
P1060467.JPG
P1060467.JPG (94.56 KiB) Viewed 2127 times
offset 0.00
P1060468.JPG
P1060468.JPG (81.89 KiB) Viewed 2127 times
Overall I am fairly please with how this is coming along, except for the fact the Creality Slicer that came with the printer will not open on my newer (hobby) laptop but will on my old one (used as a desk top), bit of a pain having to go back to the house every time I want to slice something that I have downloaded in the shed.
Cura on which the Creality one is based will not work as well I really like the Creality one as it so simple to use, maybe I will have to look at others in the future.
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by philipy » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:26 am

Looks like you're getting there. Well done for persevering.
Philip

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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by -steves- » Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:21 pm

Have a look on Thingiverse for test bed levelling and you will find some pretty handy things to see if the bed is actually level. This is the first one I found but there are many others, this one seems to be quite a favorite out there. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4642274

Also do away with the raft printing, it's so wasteful and gives a bad first layer. Go to brim or skirt printing. I always use skirt printing which just puts 3 lines around the print without touching it, just to ensure everything is printing as you expect for the first layer, then there is very little to remove and you know if your bed is level better, it also give a flatter, better looking first layer. This is what I expect to see from the very close up picture below, the dimples arew from my glass bed and super smooth, if it's all lines and rough, move the nozzle closer to the bed and keep trying. It is actually surprising just how close you need to be, the paper is a rough guide, but I find by the time I am finished I can barely get a bit of paper in there.


IMG_20210924_142716.jpg
IMG_20210924_142716.jpg (2.05 MiB) Viewed 2108 times


Support is sometimes required all over, sometimes from bed only and sometimes you're better off using none and just seeing what happens, it's surprising just how much it can support itself.

Just a massive hint this one, try some 3D LAC PLUS, like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/3DLAC-Printer- ... 4716917400. I swear by the stuff and buy it 5 bottles a time for just over £30, it's brilliant stuff.

P,.S. If that is the free PLA they give you, throw it in the bin and buy some proper stuff as the stuff they give you is pants, I only ever got there test files to print from it. Make sure you keep the PLA dry as it is exceptionally susceptible to damp / moisture from the air. I use one of the heated dispensers for my PLA so I know it's always dry. I once spent days trying to fix my printer only to find the PLA had got damp on the reel while it was printing. The first prints we great then they got worse and worse, especially if your printer is in a shed / garage, mine did this in the house.
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by GAP » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:21 pm

The PLA is what came with the printer and it is now finished so I bought a roll from Jaycar

I used a raft because the bottom of the print has only a few dimples (to simulate bolt heads) so I thought a raft would give better adhesion because of the larger surface area.
I have yet to try the brim and I saw the skirt when I did the test print for the cat and dog.

Have just looked at the 3DLAC on evilbay, not available on Amazon Aust, and at $52 AUD a bottle ($26 for the bottle and $26 postage) I might give that a pass.
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Re: Buying a 3D printer

Post by philipy » Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:27 am

GAP wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:21 pm
I used a raft because the bottom of the print has only a few dimples (to simulate bolt heads) so I thought a raft would give better adhesion because of the larger surface area.
Am I understanding you correctly - that you are trying to print bolt head detail on the bottom (bed) face of a print?
If so, I don't think you'll ever get that to work satisfactorily. If you use a raft then the bolts will stick in it and you'll lose them when you separate it. A brim or a skirt will both have the effect of either the heads not sticking and simply not printing (most likely) or if they do stick, then the unsupported main face will end up very stringy and then collapse on to the bed. If you use enough supports to prevent that, you will massively increase both printing time and material cost, and also create a big cleanup problem.
IMO, if you need detail on multiple faces, the best way of dealing with it is to split the object along some convenient plane, then print flat on the bed as 2 halves and stick them togther in due course.
Philip

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