Thingiverse WARNING

[philipy]

A warning about putting files up on Thingiverse.

I was just browing Fleabay and thought " That looks familiar" on one listing. Looking closer, somebody is selling MY 3D printed platform face components.

At first I had steam coming out of my ears thinking that somebody on GRF had downloaded them and was doing the dirty ( this is a possibility that we discussed before setting up the download section). Fortunately, before venting my spleen and deleting all my stl files on here, I realised that in one of his pictures he also had the platform rear edge blocks which I didn't include here, and then I remembered that some while ago I did also put the whole lot up on Thingiverse, so that must be where he got them from.

Soooo, be aware that if you do submit to Thingiverse, somebody else may try to make money from your hard work!

[Andrew]

Wow, that's pretty low!

Is stuff uploaded to Thingiverse under a Creative Commons licence? I know some of those do allow commercial use, but even so... I really like the idea of freely sharing things, but it's a bit much if others turn that to financial gain.

I hope your ears have stopped steaming now Philip - might be time to take your daily exercise?!!

Andrew

[SimonWood]

Although not everyone may realise it, when you upload something to Thingiverse and choose a licence under which other people can use it, you have the option to allow commercial use or not.

If you choose a licence that allows commercial use (e.g. the default, Creative Commons - Attribution) then I don't think it's unreasonable of someone to use it in a way which complies with that licence - which would include selling it! Remember, from their point of view they are doing something that they have been explicitly given permission to do.

You can, of course, choose to prohibit commercial use (e.g. by choosing Creative Commons - Attribution - Non-Commercial) and if you did that then selling your stuff is not only pretty low, it's an actionable breach of copyright - although of course the reality, sadly, is that pursuing them for damages is probably more trouble than it's worth.

Philip - I've just found your platform face and I can see it is a non-commercial licence. Definite breach there! While you might not feel it's worth making a claim against the individual, does eBay offer any mechanism to block the sale if you notify them it's your copyright?

[Trevor Thompson]

I suppose this is fairly predictable!

As you have pointed out we did have a discussion about these issues before setting up the sharing area. I suppose that as far as this forum goes I would hope that other registered users would respect the privilege of being able to print items we have shared. However it is almost impossible to "police" such a thing.

As for Thingyverse whatever the copyright position actually is (and I welcome Simon's clarification) a platform accessible to anyone worldwide will be impossible to control. I have not added anything to Thingiverse - and I don't intend to - but I have added some reasonably significant items to the forum.

I think the only thing you can attempt it to check what version of the copyright you used on Thingiverse and assuming it didn't allow commercial use contact eBay and exert your copyright.

Trevor

[philipy]

Thanks for the responses Guys.

1) Yes, the Creative Commons licence was non-commercial.
2) I've contacted this guy and pointed it out and asked him to remove them.
3) I've been on to Thingiverse and removed all of my uploads. It's slightly shutting the stable door, but it will stop it happening again.

[SimonWood]

Ok, I'm going to make a declaration first off: I am a huge admirer and advocate of Creative Commons licences. They are not only easy to understand for ordinary humans, but they are also properly formal legal documents and machine readable. So when I put my 3D files on here I will be explicitly licensing them using the Creative Commons, and I would suggest anyone else who is concerned how their files are used do the same.

The advantage of explicitly licensing your stuff (and Thingiverse has in its favour that it actually forces you to do this) is that if, say, you need to contact eBay about a violation you can point at the officially drafted agreement - which is clearly displayed on your Thingiverse page - and their overworked compliance team can see instantly there is a breach, making it simple for them to know how they should act. This seems to me more important than the almost illusory protection offered by limiting access only to members. I know from conversations elsewhere that at least one person has joined the forum to access Rik's Southwold files after reading his blog, and who can blame him! I'm sure he will use it in good faith, and hopefully stick around and contribute to the forum, which is great; but that may not always be the case - it is, as Trevor says, impossible to police. It isn't reasonable to expect mods to be able to take action before a bad actor who has joined the forum takes a file and makes commercial use of it, and when they do, if the file was shared without a legally watertight licence there is very little (for either side) to point to in terms of claiming or disputing legitimacy.

Just my 2 cents...

[Andrew]

Ok, I'm going to make a declaration first off: I am a huge admirer and advocate of Creative Commons licences. They are not only easy to understand for ordinary humans, but they are also properly formal legal documents and machine readable. So when I put my 3D files on here I will be explicitly licensing them using the Creative Commons, and I would suggest anyone else who is concerned how their files are used do the same.

Yes, I think they're great too.

Perhaps use of the appropriate CC npn-commercial licence should be a prerequisite of uploading files here, and we could share the appropriate blurb for each contributor to use?

[ge_rik]

It won't deter the most unscrupulous individuals I know, but I've embossed a copyright message on the major components of my 3D drawings. Hopefully it will make someone like your eBay chap think twice.

Copyright-loco.jpg (79.21 KiB) Viewed 4429 times

It might well be that this guy isn't aware he is infringing copyright. Quite a few people believe that anything posted on the internet is freely available for anyone to do anything they like with. I ran into problems when I used some 3D printed sheep which I'd bought to make moulds for casting sheep wagon loads in plaster. I honestly believed I was in my rights to use them in this way as I'd paid for them and wasn't using them to generate profit - but when I checked the conditions of copyright it seems even copying something for your own use is an infringement as, in effect, I'm denying the originator of income on his intellectual property rights.

It's a bit of a minefield.

However, I think it's pretty obvious that making a profit from someone else's work is an infringement.

Rik

[SimonWood]

Yes, I think they're great too.

Perhaps use of the appropriate CC npn-commercial licence should be a prerequisite of uploading files here, and we could share the appropriate blurb for each contributor to use?

Good idea to state somewhere a 'default' licence, which could apply to all models shared where another licence is not specified.

The basic format for the blurb is quite straightforward, for example if I were ready to share a file, all I would need to do would be to add:

Penrhyn_Fullersite_Wagon.stl by Simon Wood licenced under CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0

The pairs of initials in the licence correspond to what I am permitting you to do with my file, and you should link to the licence itself so anyone can go and read the full legal text if they have run out of sleeping tablets. In this case they mean:

CC - Creative Commons
BY - Attribution, i.e. you must identify me as the author of the work if you share it
NC - Non-commercial, i.e. you cannot sell it or make profit from it
SA - Share-alike, i.e. you are allowed to create derivative works (let's say you improve the STL file by adding some rivets) as long as you share it under the same licence

[philipy]

Good idea to state somewhere a 'default' licence, which could apply to all models shared where another licence is not specified.

Thanks Simon, thats a great idea, I'll add it to the top of the upload/download page.
I'll also include your example as well, if thats OK with you.

Edited to add that I've included it into the "Please read..." post at the top of the thread.

[ge_rik]

I agree. A great contribution to the discussion and also a way forward.

Rik

[SimonWood]

Thanks Simon, thats a great idea, I'll add it to the top of the upload/download page.
I'll also include your example as well, if thats OK with you.

Absolutely!

Edited to add that I've included it into the "Please read..." post at the top of the thread.

Only suggestion I would make would be to be absolutely specific, I think one could infer you mean CC-BY-NC but that could be spelled out e.g. "...covered by a Creative Commons (CC-BY-NC 4.0) Licence so unless..."

That licence should then apply to everything posted where licensing text is not included (although I think it's good practice for posters to include it even if it's the same one, i.e. CC-BY-NC).

I guess the statement would affect not only what's shared from now on but also what's already there, so perhaps everyone who has already posted stuff also needs an opportunity to specify a different licence or... remove their files? (Hopefully not!)

Oh, and one other thing! Would it be good to rename "PLEASE READ BEFORE UPLOADING FILES" to "...UPLOADING OR DOWNLOADING FILES" since 1, 3 and 5 are really about downloading, and 6 is about both!

[philipy]

Those all sound good Simon. Thanks.

[FWLR]

Well from a minion point of view like mine, which I have very little understanding of licences and they're attributes. I for one have used any files put on here for my own use only. Has I am not very good at programming at all, I am very grateful for any file that is put on here, although when I have asked for something I have had no response, which is ok, that's up to the members. It does sadden me though, when I get blanked or "I won't share it"...

Has for that unscrupulous person pinching someone else's creation and selling them for profit is very underhand and Phillip has every right to be annoyed, I know I would be and I would make very effort to get recompense from all involved. It's a dirty practice in the pretty evil scammers mould and they should get jail time. This country is soft when it comes to scammers and every other evil criminal activity.

Has for being involved with discussions on how to use files and setting a thread up, I wasn't told or asked for my minion opinion. There is one idea though, is it possible to put files on a kind of general PM thread. I know you can add members to any PM that is sent normally, so would it not be the same with members who are interested like minded members. That way there would be no way of people using them for profit without members knowing about it. I do like Rik's creations and I am in the process of printing his 2 plank wagon, but I am lost at the moment on which file to print, I have made the big mistake of downloading all of his files and got them mixed up somewhat, that's my fault.... But having Rik's imprint on some builds is not a problem at the moment for me, has I have only printed stuff that can be hidden.

So please keep on creating things Phillip, you are somewhat of a brilliant programmer, in fact everybody is for what it's worth. I am so envious of your skill's at 3d printing.

[Andrew]

Don't worry Rod, no-one was specifically asked for an opinion, it's just the usual sharing of ideas - which is what the forum's about. There's no need to put yourself down with the minion stuff, your opinion is welcome and valid. Anyone's welcome to contribute - some will know more than others, of course ( I still know next to nothing about 3D printing, for example!), but that's how we learn, and again, it's what the forum's about.

As for sharing, or otherwise, of files, I'd suggest that we assume that if a member wants to share they'll post the file here, and if they don't, they won't. That keeps it simple, and avoids anyone being offended or having to say no. Members have been incredibly generous already, but I completely understand that people don't want to share everything they create. That might be because they want to retain the option of realising a design's financial value to help fund their hobby a little, or simply because they like the idea of having something unique on their line...

Cheers,

Andrew

[philipy]

Just to finish the story. I sent the Ebay seller an ebay message pointing out that my Thingiverse files were under a non-commercial CC licence and that he had no right to be selling them and please to remove them from sale to avoid me taking it further.
I had no actual reply but he does seem to have removed them from sale, so I guess thats the end of it and a satisfactory outcome.
I can't be sure but I think his list of 'other items' on ebay is shorter than it was when I found my bits on there, so I can't help wondering if he had done the same thing with other Thingi downloads and removed them all after what I said.

[SimonWood]

Just to finish the story. I sent the Ebay seller an ebay message pointing out that my Thingiverse files were under a non-commercial CC licence and that he had no right to be selling them and please to remove them from sale to avoid me taking it further.
I had no actual reply but he does seem to have removed them from sale, so I guess thats the end of it and a satisfactory outcome.
I can't be sure but I think his list of 'other items' on ebay is shorter than it was when I found my bits on there, so I can't help wondering if he had done the same thing with other Thingi downloads and removed them all after what I said.

Happy ending! Obviously it would be better if people were more careful/respectful of copyright and licences in the first place, and to be honest I can't see that a reply with an apology would have been too much effort if this was a genuine mistake - but at least that's a quick resolution, and if you're right about the 'other items' that's and a problem avoided for others whose work had been misused as yours had, and it sounds like a lesson learned for that particular seller!

[FWLR]

Don't worry Rod, no-one was specifically asked for an opinion, it's just the usual sharing of ideas - which is what the forum's about.

That might be because they want to retain the option of realising a design's financial value to help fund their hobby a little, or simply because they like the idea of having something unique on their line...

Cheers,

Andrew

Ok Andrew, you made some valid points. But has for the sharing bit. See your first sentence. This forum is about sharing ideas. I just wish I was capable enough to produce something in 3d that was railway related. I would share everything, because that's me, I think you and all the members know that...

The second sentence says it all for me, sharing of ideas helps us all with the financially with being able to get something that would save us a lot of pounds, even hundreds of pounds. We all can't afford to spend loads of money on our railways, so anything that would help us financially would be great for all of us don't you think. And having something unique is great, but we all do things to whatever we do differently by adding something that others haven't put on the builds to make it unique for them also. It's all about ideas.....

Or is it just for those select group that can do these fantastic prints to keep amongst themselves. Because I see there hasn't been anymore 3d files posted for sometime. Just little things would help us. I am still working on trying to get my own prints , but alas its proving harder than I thought.

I won't give up, because Rik and yourself have given me so much encouragement and I will crack it one day, but until then, keeping things to ones self is selfish I feel and not in the forums spirit of helping others to achieve better things for their own lines..

Still its my head against a brick wall, because I either get blanked or told I haven't contributed so why should we to me. I have asked for help with things which would make a start for me and if the file was kept open so I/we could alter it to our own ideas would go along way to making this forum an even better one. The files could be for example only accessible to members only, so guests couldn't use them and like you and Simon have pointed out, make them non-commercial only...

[ge_rik]

Hi Rod
Your experiments with TinkerCAD have shown how time consuming and tricky making drawings for 3D printing can be. I think it's only right and proper that someone who has spent hours drawing something should be upset by someone else profiting from their efforts unfairly.

Regarding the sharing of files. Like most people on the forum, I am happy to share some of my drawings for free, but I have decided that my more complicated stuff, such as the Southwold coach and the Schull and Skibbereen loco will be placed on a site such as Shapeways where a fee will be charged to download the files. This won't generate me a lot of income, but will give me some return for the amount of time and effort which I've put into designing, drawing, testing, redesigning and constructing the models. I will place links on here to where the files can be accessed.

I too don't have bags of money to put into my modelling, which is why most of my stuff has been scratchbuilt. But, from time to time, I will buy a kit or a loco chassis or other bits and pieces which I don't have the skills to make myself. I pay what I think is a fair price to someone else to have created those things.

Please think carefully before posting messages which appear to criticise other members of the forum for not wanting to share freely things they have worked hard to produce. You are quick to tell everyone what a friendly forum this is. Can we please keep it that way.

Rik

[philipy]

Has for being involved with discussions on how to use files and setting a thread up, I wasn't told or asked for my minion opinion.

At the time of those discussions you had neither a 3d printer nor Tinkercad, so there would have been little point in asking your opinion, anymore than the 1100 or so other members in a similar position.

There is one idea though, is it possible to put files on a kind of general PM thread.

A reasonable thought, however unfortunately PM's can't carry attachments. I know because I've wanted to do that myself in the past.

An option would be to not actually post the stl's to the board, but 'advertise' what is available with a photo and then anyone who wants them to PM the originator.
That is what I was intending to do, by editing my existing posts, before I realised that my platform faces had actually been pirated from Thingiverse not here. However, personally, I still would prefer to trust our members to honour the intent, especially now that all of mine carry CC licences and it is also covered by default in the "Readme" post at the top, but it is always an option for anyone who wants to do that.