3 D Printing 16mm models

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philipy
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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by philipy » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:39 am

Trevor Thompson wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:55 pm

The roof slates are actually to scale. However the thickness isn't making the steps in the roof very obvious. It is a case where making something oversize is necessary to make it look right. So if I make a roof like this again I will overemphasise the thickness of the slates.
The thickness may become more obvious once you've painted and weathered the roof and paint has settled into the joints.
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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by FWLR » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:03 am

Very nice build indeed. :thumbright:

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:19 pm

Lovely piece of modelling, Trevor. As Philips says, some weathering (accidental or deliberate) might emphasise the divisions between the slates.

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by Trevor Thompson » Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:03 pm

Trevor Thompson wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:37 am An update on finishing off 4415




And now 4415. I have added the lettering and the makers plate. The lettering is hand painted - and I have done better, but it will suffice. The surface finish on some of the panels is not perfect, and I may yet go back and try different print settings. I suspect more solid layers on the outer surfaces may improve the surface finish. Anyway as a project it is finished and it works:

IMG_0833.jpg

IMG_0836.jpg

Trevor
I have been running 4415 on my 1 in 60 main line. With a reasonably heavy rake of slate wagons I am getting much wheel slipping.

So I am adding weights (low down) and in a way which avoids opening up the body - and risking damage to the paintwork.

I have made a dozen holders to take 10mm diameter lengths of brass rod, on the printer, and parted off 4 off 70mm, and 2 off 80mm lengths.
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Here are two of the rods and their holders, plus one weight ready to fit.

I have bonded the 70mm lengths under the footplate on the outside edges, and the 80mm lengths across the ends.
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Having just come in from testing it I can confirm that the slipping is now gone (with the same rake as before).

Just got to do something similar to Welsh Pony!

Trevor

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by ge_rik » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:54 pm

A really neat and clever way of adding weight 👍

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by Phil.P » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:44 am

This has been a bit of an epic, but well worth ploughing through..
Thank you Trevor for your tenacity.

A few questions:

Have I got it correct?
If you were to print (fdm) a 2mm thick flat object ; it would print as a bottom 'skin', edges, some sort of support matrix, and a top skin/surface?

Can you get flat sheets (like plastucard) of the materials that fdm printers use?

Would it be possible, to print onto a flat sheet of the same material (if it is available)? - I am wondering if it would be possible to print detail onto a manufactured flat surface?


And finally :
Are there threads on the Forum, discussing other 'machines', and what they can do etc?
Thinking ;
Vinyl / silhouette cutters.
Mill / drill /router
Hobby-size laser cutter
DRO - what /how to use. Versus CNC..

A lot to ask, I know, but I feel I could justify some machines, if I had a better idea if they could be made to do what I want.

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by philipy » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:07 pm

I'll jump in here with some of the answers, and no doubt Trevor will have some additional thoughts.
Phil.P wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:44 am Have I got it correct?
If you were to print (fdm) a 2mm thick flat object ; it would print as a bottom 'skin', edges, some sort of support matrix, and a top skin/surface?
Yes thats a fair summary. However, the number of layers and skins , not to mention the thickness of those layers and the density of the infill are all variable, so that it can in theory be printed as flimsy or as solid as you want.
Phil.P wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:44 am Can you get flat sheets (like plastucard) of the materials that fdm printers use?
There are very many fdm filament materials, including HIPS( Plasticard) and ABS, PetG, Nylon, etc so the answer to that question is a qualified yes. Although personally I use mostly PLA which isn't available in sheet form as far as I know
Phil.P wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:44 am Would it be possible, to print onto a flat sheet of the same material (if it is available)? - I am wondering if it would be possible to print detail onto a manufactured flat surface?
It would be a bit of a pain to set the printer up to do that because it would effectively shift the Z coordinates. Also I'm not sure why you would want to do that? It would be simpler to just print the complete thickness, or if you are thinking of say, a rivetted wagon strap, simply print the strap and glue it on ( which I've done a number of times)
Phil.P wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:44 am And finally :
Are there threads on the Forum, discussing other 'machines', and what they can do etc?
Thinking ;
Vinyl / silhouette cutters.
Mill / drill /router
Hobby-size laser cutter
DRO - what /how to use. Versus CNC..
There has been some mention of laser cutting, and of course lathe work to some extent. Best thing is to use the Search function.
Philip

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by -steves- » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:42 pm

philipy wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:07 pm
Phil.P wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:44 am Would it be possible, to print onto a flat sheet of the same material (if it is available)? - I am wondering if it would be possible to print detail onto a manufactured flat surface?
It would be a bit of a pain to set the printer up to do that because it would effectively shift the Z coordinates. Also I'm not sure why you would want to do that? It would be simpler to just print the complete thickness, or if you are thinking of say, a rivetted wagon strap, simply print the strap and glue it on ( which I've done a number of times)
I think that depends on the setup of the printer. On my printers, which both have a BLTouch fitted, a sheet could easily be printed on to as the Z axis automatically sets itself up with each print. The only thing you would have to do is ensure good adhesion from the bed to the sheet of "plastic" and make sure the sheet up was to temperature before printing. All a very simple process but I agree with Philip in that in reality I would either print the entire thing or use a sheet of plastic and just add printed detailing to it.
The buck stops here .......

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by Trevor Thompson » Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:51 pm

I think many of the answers have already been given - and please forgive me for not replying sooner.

However I do have my own "take" on there things!

You will have realised that I use mainly ABS to print with. I also make large models completely on the printer - even if I have to assemble many individual components. You can look at the station building for my model of Tan-y-bwlch station and Ffestiniog coaches 15 / 16 for examples. I would not make models from sheet material and add detail using a printer. Why? I see no advantage. It means buying sheet material to start with - and that isn't a cheaper way of making the model. As an example of that the station building I am currently roofing. It is under "railway in the valley of the mill". It started out some years ago before I had a printer and I am trying to finish it off to stop it cluttering up my workshop when it should be cluttering up the garden. I have printed sections of tiles and glues them onto the plywood roof. It has used a single reel of filament which cost £10.99 plus postage. I could not have bought enough HIPS sheet for that amount. The difficulty will always be disguising the joints, but when I look at tan - y - bwlch station sitting out in the weather I cant see the joints. On the other hand the engineering works building roofed with strips of slates cut from HIPS will need some attention at the end of the season (it has been outside for about 5 years though).

Of course different machines have different abilities, and I don't just make things from plastic. I would not be without my lathe/mill/drill which can do things which I cant do any other way.

However using the techniques that you have poured through in looking at this thread I am now making models which I think are as good as could be made any other way. The ashbury 4 wheel coaches look superb to me - I can hardly tell that they were printed. There are less flaws than in my hand built Ashbury 4 wheeler. The regular external framework was much easier to line accurately - and it is lined in 2 colours. Much easier to do if the coach side is accurate and regular. I am sold on the concept of printed buildings which seem to cope with sitting outside really well - and my buildings are all scale models of fairly large prototypes.

I am shortly going to start a model of a live steam locomotive where most of the model will be printed. Just boiler, steam motor, gas tank and pipes made in the traditional way. It will be interesting to see if it can be made to work!

So finally the 3 D printer has revolutionised my modelling. The key is to be able to drive the CAD software. Then anything is possible. The actual printer make and model is less important.

Hope that helps!

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by philipy » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:38 pm

Trevor Thompson wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:51 pm The key is to be able to drive the CAD software. Then anything is possible. The actual printer make and model is less important.

I have to agree with Trevor on this point. I made sure I could do things with Sketchup before buying a printer.
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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by Phil.P » Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:24 pm

Thank you for replying, Trevor..

My reason for asking about printing detail onto a sheet of material, is that most of the kits I have bought, where panels are printed, fall woefully short of having a decent finish.

They either have marked stripes / ridges, or a hatched pattern.

If I was to purchase a more 'traditional' kit, then flat panels would need a lot less finishing.

If a panel is printed (with rivet detail, say) it can be almost impossible to get a decent finish. - YMMV.

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by Trevor Thompson » Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:16 pm

Ah now I see what you are trying to find out!

Yes you are right about the difficulty of getting flat surfaces to be perfect when they are printed. However I have never found it to be insurmountable. Let me explain.
IMG_1666.jpg
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The photo shows two of my Ashbury 4 wheel coaches. The red one is scratch built from plywood. The one in the plum livery is 3 D printed. Can you see any of those marks in the flat sections on the 3 D printed coach? I cant even when I have the real thing in front of me. I think that one has the slightly better finish - perhaps because all of the external framing is square and even (which is difficult to do by hand but easy on a computer).

I did not do any sanding or take any material off to get the finish. I use paint as a filler primer. Specifically I use an airbrush and an oil based paint to fill those imperfections.
In detail:

Coach on its side on a turntable with the side to be painted uppermost
paint thinned until it successfully goes through my airbrush (about 15% thinners in my case)
Spray the side from all 4 sides carefully to cover all of the frame edges
concentrate on each of the flat panels in turn - spraying from side to side until each panel has sufficient paint for it to "pool" making a flat layer
because i am using an oil paint I can keep coming back to specific parts of the side as long as I allow the paint to become "skinned" first.

When I have covered it as thickly as I dare I leave it to dry for 24 hours - then I can start again. It might take 3 goes to get the right finish. Remember that the side I am painting must be upright because I am applying enough paint at each go for it to run.

As to paints. I have successfully used Humbrol and Precision Paints products this way. I don't find acrylic airbrush paints work as well in this way, although I do use lots of acrylic paint on other things. The thinning is important - I want it to firstly go through the air brush and secondly provide a small area of paint on the model - covering about a 1cm diameter area of the model. Then spray it as if it was a full size spray gun and a car I am painting. It then tends to dry as quickly as if I was painting a car.

A last point. I buy things like door furniture - hinges can be printed but handles need to be strong so I favour lost wax castings. Rivets are easy a basic rod shape is softened by painting - but it doesn't look overpainted. I have also successfully incorporated lettering which is easy to get accurate on a computer but at the limit of my ability by hand.
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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by Phil.P » Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:38 pm

Trevor,
Thank you, once again, for the detailed reply..

I think I have two problems:

1. The fear of failure. - We see so many well-executed constructions, a mental paralysis stops us from having a go. Let's face it, in the grand scheme of things, it won't *really* matter, if I make a complete dog's dinner of the job.

2. Expectation :
People see a 60+ bloke messing about with model trains, and assume that I have been modelling for years..

3. (yes, I know I said 'two') I am my own worst critic!

Phil.P

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by philipy » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:26 pm

Phil.P wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:38 pm
1. The fear of failure. - We see so many well-executed constructions, a mental paralysis stops us from having a go. Let's face it, in the grand scheme of things, it won't *really* matter, if I make a complete dog's dinner of the job.
Shut your eyes and think of England. i.e just go for it!
We all make mistakes, some are correctable, some simply go in the bin, no shame in it either way.

A random sample from my 3D Print Failures box! Some are true failures of the print process and some are simply prints that I was unhappy about for some reason and re-did. I think you'll find that everyone has a box like this.
DSC_0021.JPG
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Phil.P wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:38 pm 2. Expectation :
People see a 60+ bloke messing about with model trains, and assume that I have been modelling for years..
Age is irrelevant and nobody on here will criticise you for having a go, even if it doesn't work. Somewhere,( I can't remember exactly what it is called) there is a thread of epic failures that folks have posted to publicise theirown errors. :shock:
Phil.P wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:38 pm 3. (yes, I know I said 'two') I am my own worst critic!
Again that applies to most of us... refer back to Point 1 above :lol:
Philip

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by Trevor Thompson » Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:42 pm

I agree with all of that.

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and have a go.

Sometimes having a go leads to epic failures, but often it leads through a series of attempts to something very worth while.

I have a large box of failures as well, but I have quite an array of successes. The successes are the bits you show people! Although you have seen some of my failures on this forum!

Trevor

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Re: 3 D Printing 16mm models

Post by ge_rik » Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:49 pm

It took me eight tries before I got the housing for my Schull and Skibberreen motor block loco right. There are two parts to the block, each taking nine to twelve hours to print. That's not counting the time taken in between to redo the drawings....

All part of life's rich pageantry!

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