Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

A very popular starting point for Live Steam. With their low cost comes a number of problems which can be discussed here
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daan
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Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by daan » Sun May 07, 2017 5:03 pm

Hi All,
I had a project going with an old Regner boiler someone else had abandonned :lol: but I now know why. The boiler is almost clogged with sludge and stone. So much for the regnerboiler.
Since I'm looking for a base to start with for a small live steam locomotive, I found the mark III mamod locomotives on the web. On paper they seem very good, with silver soldered boilers, 40psi, gas fired and inline lubricator, also they have a separate valve for speed and direction and the 9,5mm pistons also look a lot better than the classic ones.

A Telford is only 32mm, so that one is off. I'm running on 45mm and only the mark 3 has that option.

But what I certainly don't want to buy is something alike the classic mamods, the ones without lubricators and fueled on solid fuel. So no MSS type of thing.

I want to change the looks by building a new brass outline and adding some of the regnerparts in order to make it look more european. I don't mind oscillators, as long as the locomotive is not toyish in it's behaviour.

The big question is: How is the 3rd generation Mamod locomotive, is it a grown-up and usable locomotive or better save a few months extra for a secondhand slidevalve loco? (though even a rusted, shabby and unfinished roundhouse 0-4-0 "project" went for over 500 pounds lately, or an 0-6-0 completely shot for 550.. :shock: )

At 340 pounds for a 45mm version the mamod looks fairly right regarding the specs..
"En schöne Gruess" from an Alpine railway in Holland.

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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by f.schulz » Sun May 07, 2017 11:53 pm

Hallo,

I own a completely upgraded MSS comparable with the MK lll. Generally I would not recommend this loko. It is and remains without a better chassis, wheels and axels a not very strong and reliable toy.

Spare some time a little and buy a Roundhouse Millie or a Regner Easy Line engine and You get a loko running very well, without expensive tuning works.
I have both upgraded with RC. Millie and Konrad run very well and reliable.

Too an ACC loko (Ruby, Dora o.a.] could be recommended, but I don!t own one, because the availabiliy of spare parts is difficult or unpossible, so I will not recommend this nice products. Perhaps another owner can say something about it.

Wishes

Frederic

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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by daan » Mon May 08, 2017 3:57 pm

Thanks Frederic,

that's why I don't choose for an old type Mamod or MSS loco, the mark III however is said to have better axles, wheels and frame, better boiler etc.
I know roundhouse is better, but as I said before, a millie costs 630 a mamod mark 3 340 pounds. It's not a small difference, but I can buy nearly 2 mamod loco's for the price of one millie and on paper the specs are comparable!

Both have a potboiler, both have external gasfiring, inline lubricator, silver soldered boiler, 40PSI pressurevalve, fittings are the same. The only difference is the cylinders: oscillating with direction control versus slidevalve with excentric.

The simple question I have is: Is a Millie that much better that it's worth two new mamod locomotives?? Or has anyone regauged a slidevalve Mamod Telford to 45mm already?
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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by Big Jim » Mon May 08, 2017 6:17 pm

I am not an expert on the new mamod but. With the Millie you will get an engine that will run well and is more a proper peice of engineering and looks the part.
Mamod in my opinion are rather more like toys. If your budget will stretch I would go for a Millie.
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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by Chris Cairns » Mon May 08, 2017 8:44 pm

Mamod wrote:Colours and specifications may change without prior notice by Mamod Limited under its policy of continual product improvement
Some frustrated Mamod owners refer to this policy as 'Work in Progress'. I have not seen a Mark III since April 2016, and although I do not have a Basic Series Roundhouse locomotive, I am familiar with their construction & performance, etc. So here's my views for your request.

The Mark III has a silver soldered brass boiler, but it is still fitted with a plastic/perspex sight glass. At 40 PSI you can get close to the melting point of that sight glass - the one on my Mark I failed, and similarly the one on my TE1A fitted with a Mamod Ceramic Gas Burner scuttle conversion failed, but they are easily replaced (they should provide a spare one with the model, rather than requiring you to contact Mamod [or a trader] for a replacement).

The wheels are still machined mazak castings, but have a better flange profile, and proper splined axles (only heard of one wheel slipping on its axle, but that was a former Garden Rail review model which seems to have had a hard life). Watch my Mark I video to see how the wheel sets are securely mounted to the chassis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imZwlU3KzXU and my Mark II covers the differences/improvements - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTH7_uuTiuc

The oscillating cylinders have 'O' ringed pistons, and 'O' ringed piston rod glands - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXy-bLJsgSQ However, unless they have been changed recently, the gland pocket is too deep for the 'O' ring used so it does not get compressed by the gland collar. Mamod told me this is to allow the 'O' ring to float up & down the piston rod, but how can that then provide any sealing? So you need to add extra packing in order to get that 'O' ring compressed to get a proper seal.

The gas burner is ceramic and thus venerable to contamination from the oily condensate. This is a major problem on the Thomas Telford (which has piston valve cylinders, but Mamod insist in calling them slide valves).

The current achilles heel of the Mark III is the inline lubricator is not the style that we all expect (e.g. the Roundhouse type with a continuous through steam pipe with appropriate sized hole).

Despite having 'O' ringed pistons there was no lubricator on the Mark I. They designed a lubricator for the Mark II, which we refer to as a total displacement lubricator. The steam pipe from the regulator housing terminates into a threaded fitting on the top of the lubricator. The lubricator has a second steam out pipe which is like the overflow pipe in a cistern (i.e. it is not directly connected to the steam in pipe fitting). Thus the lubricator has to be filled with steam first and that tends to displace much of the steam oil at the beginning of a run, flooding the running plate under the chimney. And of course where is some of that oily exhaust going to flow back to - Yup, the ceramic gas burner which does not like being contaminated! This process was further developed as the Mark II filler/drain plug was fitted on the lubricator's side sticking out the cab side and most owners would fill the lubricator with the loco on its side thus priming the steam out pipe - Catch 22! On the Mark III's lubricator the filler plug has been relocated into the cab, requiring the use of a syringe (supplied) for filling, and has a separate drain plug below the cab floor, but as far as I'm aware it still does not have a continuous through steam pipe - Mamod state that it is the same style of displacement lubricator as used by other manufacturers?

As you are going to fit a new body, etc. perhaps the Mark III fits your budget allowing for corrections of the above faults. The exhaust either needs some form of separator tank to stop contaminating the ceramic burner plus a proper inline displacement lubricator fitted, or instead a metal style pot boiler burner fitted (as Millie).

If your budget allows I'd go with the Roundhouse option - although 2nd hand prices have risen dramatically in the UK following the Accucraft Chinese & Brexit factored price hikes, 2nd hand 45mm locos can go for lower prices than their 32mm equivalent.

I would not recommend the Thomas Telford (still work in progress), and it is not easily convertible to 45mm gauge.

If you've read down to here - Well Done!

Chris Cairns

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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by Peter Butler » Mon May 08, 2017 9:52 pm

Well I read it Chris and I'm not particularly interested in the subject! Your fully detailed description would lead me to avoid the said product like the proverbial... should I ever be tempted.
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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by tom_tom_go » Mon May 08, 2017 10:29 pm

Why not buy a Roundhouse chassis kit first then when funds allow a boiler? You are building your own body so there is no point buying a complete loco.

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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by daan » Tue May 09, 2017 8:07 am

Thanks a lot, specially Chris, for the huge amount of information and the time for writing it all down.
I've been also thinking about a chassis kit, because I had a Regner boiler, but since that one is not usable, I'm surveying my options so to speak.. :lol:

Part of me knows that a good locomotive is expensive and that at this moment, even a secondhand live steamer or a chassis/boiler combination simply costs money. Funds can be found as well, so what's the problem?

The other part of me simply sefuses to pay 500+ pounds (say over 600 euro's) on fleabay for a heap of trash with a roundhouse watermark on it, or over 800 euro's for a simple slip excentric pot boiler/ 900 euro's for an accucraft chassis/boiler ragleth combination. Simply because there is a boundry inside my head on whats appropriate to spend on a toy (in relation to what you get back for your money). That last part of me also knows that there are 2 good working locomotives already in my cupboard and that I'm an engineer myself, so what's the deal with a few problems i can work around?

At the moment I'm leaning towards a "slide valve" telford, regauging it to 45mm and fit the steel regnerburner under it, which I have laying around from the stalled project. But that is my 2nd part.
I still need to balance out my inside 2 halves and search a way which satisfies both of them.. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by Chris Cairns » Tue May 09, 2017 9:12 am

daan wrote:At the moment I'm leaning towards a "slide valve" telford
In that case I suggest you have a full read through this Topic - http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopi ... -asc-0.php

Chris Cairns

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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by daan » Tue May 09, 2017 6:43 pm

Thanks Chris..
I've read the pages through, it has some troubles indeed, but again I see nothing spectaculair wrong with it. But the 2 halves of me are also still discussing their issues, so nothing is sure yet.. :lol: :lol:

I appriciate the efforts and the links towards more knowledge though!!
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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by tom_tom_go » Tue May 09, 2017 7:02 pm

This is the only Mamod I have seen run well:


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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by Chris Cairns » Thu May 11, 2017 1:15 am

tom_tom_go wrote:This is the only Mamod I have seen run well
A classic example of when is a Mamod not a Mamod - this Mamodification is featured here - http://www.gardenrailwayclub.com/locos/mamodification

Chris Cairns

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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by daan » Thu May 11, 2017 9:39 am

Hi Chris,
Thanks for all the information. May be I'm needing some kind of treatment, but if I read all these articles on "mamodification" I think it's rather nice.. The process of sorting things out, trying to capture the essence of the problem and fix it, is something I like. Actually it's my job (I work as a shift engineer in a factory trying to tame the robots and sort out their "moods" of erratic behaviour)

For what I've seen, for the kind of money I'm into the race, I anyway can only buy a fixer-upper of any make. With a momad at least there are hundreds of parts available and a lot of people living the joy of capturing the spirit of pure and simple 1930's toy steam locomotives.

It starts tipping the balance a bit more, but there are some other options on the horizon, like a tired Regner Emma being in need of some serious TLC.. Anyway, may be even a cheap MSS thingy is an option, having all way's open for mamodification.. :thumbright:
"En schöne Gruess" from an Alpine railway in Holland.

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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by SimonWood » Thu May 11, 2017 12:00 pm

daan wrote: Thu May 11, 2017 9:39 am Actually it's my job (I work as a shift engineer in a factory trying to tame the robots and sort out their "moods" of erratic behaviour)
"Robot tamer" is a very cool job description :)

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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by Killian Keane » Thu May 11, 2017 6:09 pm

If it was me, I would use roundhouse equipment as a basis, or if you must have a mamod derivative, the roy wood models Janet is probably your best bet.
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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by artfull dodger » Sun May 14, 2017 4:37 pm

The Regner steel poker burner will not work under a boiler Daan. It has to be inside a flue tube to burn at all. That is what the pot boiler burners are ceramic bed burners. And the price you pay for the Roundhouse engine, is IMHO, worth every penny. I have two from the basic series, Sammie and Bertie. I have customized my Sammie with thier Walschaert's valve gear kit to give him proper valve gear. I am not sure what I will do with Bertie, for now she stay slip eccentric. To me the Telford is just plain ugly. I give Mamod credit for the effort but the styling needs some help to make it more pleasing to the eye. The old MK1's were much more pleasing looking, if severely lacking in the running department. None of the UK brands are cheap in the USA, but my money goes to Roundhouse. Mike
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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by tom_tom_go » Sun May 14, 2017 5:25 pm

Chris Cairns wrote: Thu May 11, 2017 1:15 am
tom_tom_go wrote:This is the only Mamod I have seen run well
A classic example of when is a Mamod not a Mamod - this Mamodification is featured here - http://www.gardenrailwayclub.com/locos/mamodification

Chris Cairns
Must be why it ran well then (ducks for cover to avoid the abuse from the Mamod faithful!)

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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by daan » Mon May 15, 2017 8:03 pm

Well, the Regner locomotive eventually was sold off to someone else. I've seen the telford trying to haul 1 single wagon around a tight curve and it simply lacks power. The other version, the mark 3, I keep hesitating also. It has all kind of things being better engineered than a simple MSS one, but it still has a burner outside of the boiler.
Where I live we have wind allways. So i guess a potboiler is simply not efficient enough. I've reserved the money I would have spend on a mark 3 and put it in an old sock. I'll save up to buy a bertie by roundhouse because it's having everything I need, a lot of altering possibilities, internally fired boiler and it looks great even as a standard locomotive.

So thanks for all the advise, good words and ideas! If I can pick up a simple mamod on fleabay for a steal I can always tinker with it, but as everybody else says: the money spend on a mark 3 or telford is simply a bit much for something which needs tinkering and good luck to get it running fine.

But first a week of holidays in the Vosges area in France. They also have a few "chemins forrestières" open to the public with live steam, so I will get my amount of steam and maybe a lot of new ideas.. :lol:
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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by Superbiker_uk » Fri May 19, 2017 2:40 pm

daan wrote: Thu May 11, 2017 9:39 am Hi Chris,
Thanks for all the information. May be I'm needing some kind of treatment, but if I read all these articles on "mamodification" I think it's rather nice.. The process of sorting things out, trying to capture the essence of the problem and fix it, is something I like. Actually it's my job (I work as a shift engineer in a factory trying to tame the robots and sort out their "moods" of erratic behaviour)

For what I've seen, for the kind of money I'm into the race, I anyway can only buy a fixer-upper of any make. With a momad at least there are hundreds of parts available and a lot of people living the joy of capturing the spirit of pure and simple 1930's toy steam locomotives.

It starts tipping the balance a bit more, but there are some other options on the horizon, like a tired Regner Emma being in need of some serious TLC.. Anyway, may be even a cheap MSS thingy is an option, having all way's open for mamodification.. :thumbright:

Just as you suggest - purchase a 'low cost' Mamod SL or MSS loco and do it up a bit - that's what I do. Here is one I made earlier (from a standard MSS tank engine):
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Re: Is the mark 3 a good locomotive?

Post by Superbiker_uk » Fri May 19, 2017 2:41 pm

Group shot of two other Mamod based WD Engines:
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