The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by IanC » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:07 pm

Interesting stuff. I'm tempted to use breeze blocks for my railway when (if) I get a round tuit. I did consider filcris or recycled plastics for durability. I guess the solution is to leave plenty of large expansion gaps if expansion and contraction proves to be the issue?
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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by ge_rik » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:40 pm

What a fascinating hobby this is. Here we are discussing the finer points of thermodynamics in relation to materials. We should get garden railway modelling on the school curriculum and as a post graduate degree syllabus.

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by Soar Valley Light » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:01 pm

ge_rik wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:40 pm What a fascinating hobby this is. Here we are discussing the finer points of thermodynamics in relation to materials. We should get garden railway modelling on the school curriculum and as a post graduate degree syllabus.

Rik
I like that Idea Rik. For the first time in my life, I would stand a half chance of getting a degree! :king:

Following up on Graeme's very interesting information (Thanks Graeme) - I thought that using a geotextile over the top of the Filcris and burying it up to the top might keep the temperature of the plastic down, and so reduce the greater expansion and contraction - not that I ever dreamt that it would be such a large movement! I'm still hopeful that this may work, I just need to get the sunken areas built back up. The other thing I'm hoping will mitigate this movement is established flora growing on the lineside. It's noticeable that the movement has occurred where vegetation is at it's most sparse coverage. This spring should see the plants really establish themselves so I shall watch what happens during the coming summer with the greatest of interest!

Out of interest, I tried to reduce the risk of erosion on the embankment slopes by placing large grantite blocks (standard gauge ballast!) as edging blocks on the outside of the cess. I reckoned without the civil engineering aptitude demonstrated by our local Jackdaw population though! In their search for food they flick these not insignificant lumps of stone over (and down the slope) without the least effort! :evil: They are great entertainment but completely unmanageable. I enjoy their presence so I think I shall have to resort to some cement to fix the stone blocks together in sections big enough to defeat my feathered friends. :?

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by GTB » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:19 pm

Soar Valley Light wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:01 pm - not that I ever dreamt that it would be such a large movement!
Surprised me as well. Then I noticed pandsrowe had reported similar results.

What surprised me more was that I remembered how to do the calculations, as it's getting on for 50 yrs since I studied thermodynamics........... :shock:
Soar Valley Light wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:01 pm It's noticeable that the movement has occurred where vegetation is at it's most sparse coverage.
Wouldn't surprise me if getting a good covering of soil and foliage over the Filcris improved things. Moist soil shaded by plants should maintain a more stable temperature.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by bikermike » Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:25 pm

hello, sorry to nose in, but I wanted to ask about the Filcriss?

How is it going now?
.
I'm looking to use it as a temporary structure, so the expansion/contraction differential highlighted shouldn't be such a problem.

Looks a lovely railway

Thanks

Mike

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by Soar Valley Light » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:30 pm

Hello Mike,

The jury is still out if I'm honest. Despite the recent hot weather nothing seems to have moved, my problems seem to have been in cold weather. Despite the laws of physics I seemed to get buckles in the track during Winter last year! I can't honestly say it was the Filcris structure that moved, some of the pins holding the track to it tore out in the worst locations so the track seems to have moved rather than the Filcris. All my Filcris is buried, even on the embankment sections and there is a layer of geotextile on top, help down on either side by pea gravel edges to form drainage. The track is pinned to the Filcris through this geotextile. There is no doubt that the Filcris has settled, both vertically and horizontally, in places. The amounts are small and it's entirely down to the ground it is set it. I used 1'-6" Filcris uprights to carry the two lonigtudinal runners (one either side of the uprights), I ought to have gone for 2'-0" ones really, so much of the garden was reprofiled before the railways construiction began. Some of the stakes are probably sitting completely in fill material that has subsequently settled. I thought I had avoided this but the up heaval was piecemeal and levels were revised as work proceeded to avoid having too much or too little soil in the garden. I got a bit lost!! All in all I remain very satisfied with the Filcris.

Construction of the line has been on pause for rather longer than I would have liked, for a number of reasons. Things are starting to move again now and a couple more turnouts are under construction, these are required to allow the next steps to take place. Before I can start outside again though I'm going to have to recover the railway from beneath the undergrowth. Creeping thymes are ideal plants for 16mm scale but they don't half live up to their names! There has also been a takeover bid by the lavendar but it's such a haven for bees and butterflies that I can't bring myself to hack it back until it's completely finished flowering. I must find a way to hold it back next year!

All the best,

Andrew
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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by bikermike » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:49 am

Thanks.

I shall do some more headscratching. Good luck with the works!

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by GTB » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:54 am

Soar Valley Light wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:30 pm Despite the laws of physics I seemed to get buckles in the track during Winter last year! I can't honestly say it was the Filcris structure that moved, some of the pins holding the track to it tore out in the worst locations so the track seems to have moved rather than the Filcris.
It's all relative, but I guess you don't want a lecture on frames of reference....... 8)

The high co-efficient of thermal expansion of Filcris works in both directions. Assuming you laid the track in warm weather, when the weather turned cold the Filcris contracted more than the metal rail did.

The result for all practical purposes is the same as we expect to see in hot weather with rails expanding more than a concrete or wood base.

Either way, the rail ends up longer than the track support structure and has to go somewhere.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by Soar Valley Light » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:45 pm

Hi Graeme,

Of course! It makes perfect sense, I'd never thought of it that way round!!! Life with full sized pway has led me to consider expansion in terms of 'the world' stopping still whilst the rails expand and contract. I'm used to track foundations shrinking and swelling but that tends to affect 'top' not 'line'. Linear expansion was something I'd failed to grasp could happen with the 16mm world - I should have, because I'm sure you've mentioned it before elsewhere. Thanks for the reminder.

The worst affected stretches were the uprotected lengths where they leave the embankment sections and cross gaps intended to be bridges. Thus they are short exposed stretches prone to the greatest degree of temperature movement. Much of the track was laid in warm to hot weather so it would be the shrinkage of the Filcris that caused most differential movement.

Aren't the laws of physics amazing!

Thanks again,

Andrew
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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by DonW » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:52 pm

Tricky stuff this thermal expansion. You think using Filcris you avoid the expansion and contraction of timber due to moisture only to be tripped up by thermal expansion. Normal expectation if using a concrete base would be to expect the gaps to close with increasing temperature. With the Filcris it seems the gaps will open with increasing temperature. If you increase the number of expansion joints (usually 1 metre rail lengths) that would reduce the movement at each rail joint and when gaps do close the pressure for sideways movement would be less. Half metre lengths would be a little over 30ft at 1:19 which doesn't sound unreasonable for a narrow gauge line.
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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by 11thHour » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:29 am

Seems you can make real sleepers from plastic!

http://www.integratedrecycling.com.au/railway-sleepers/

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by idlemarvel » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:02 pm

Recycled plastic even. Nice find! :D
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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by GTB » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:08 am

Soar Valley Light wrote: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:45 pm Aren't the laws of physics amazing!
Newtonian physics is fairly logical, just be thankful that garden railways aren't small enough to be affected by quantum physics........ :shock:

LGB make something they call an adjustable track, which has telescoping rail sections, made for filling odd gaps in a set track layout. It would act like the expansion sections of track used in Europe where the rail ends slide past each other, so it may be possible to make something similar in SM32.

Given how much Filcris can move, you may need to mount your bridge spans like real ones so they can slide on the abutments.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by Soar Valley Light » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:26 pm

Hi Graeme and DonW,

I'd come to the conclusion that it may be a case of laying track in hot weather with the expansion joints wide and in cold weather with them closed (the reverse of what would normally be done!). Extra joints would help keep large gaps to a minimum. 30' is around the standard rail length for most naroow gauge lines so it would work well appearance wise. My track is laid in 1 yard lengths with a pair of dummy fishplates mid length to make it look like 30' track panels - maybe I need to slide them back and put a saw through the rail at each one!

Adjustment switches (breathers) would be another good solution, especially at the bridges as Graeme suggests. Flat bottom breather switches (in 12 " to the foot scale) are machined 'scarfed joints', held in line by two special clamped baseplates. They allow about a total of 250mm movement before they butt up. In practise stressing CWR means they don't move anything like that much. Making them in 16mm scale would be quite a tricky job - but not impossible. The bullhead version in full size looks remarkably like a pair of switches. Yes, there are a couple of special clamp chairs but they would be far easier to replicate in 16mm. I shall give that some serious thought if I get any more movement this winter.

Thanks for the ideas guys.

Andrew
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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by DonW » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:16 pm

Soar Valley Light wrote: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:26 pm Hi Graeme and DonW,

I'd come to the conclusion that it may be a case of laying track in hot weather with the expansion joints wide and in cold weather with them closed (the reverse of what would normally be done!). Extra joints would help keep large gaps to a minimum. 30' is around the standard rail length for most naroow gauge lines so it would work well appearance wise. My track is laid in 1 yard lengths with a pair of dummy fishplates mid length to make it look like 30' track panels - maybe I need to slide them back and put a saw through the rail at each one!


Andrew
You could just try that on a few of lengths and see if it makes enough difference to warrant doing it on the rest. Certainly any new lengths I would lay with the gaps as you say and probably in half metre lengths. Seems to me if you find this an improvement a short article for Garden rail or SMT would be useful for those using Filcris who are not on here.

Don

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by Soar Valley Light » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:05 pm

Greetings all from Charnwood.

I wasn't surprised that it's nine months since my last post. Progress slowed to a complete standstill at the back end of last year. I needed to get a coupe of turnouts built to move forwards. The idea was to crack on with them on a day when the weather was too bad to do anything else. The day never seemed to come though - which is odd, because I was blaming the state of the allotment at the start of spring on the fact that it had been too wet to do anything! :?

Any road up (as we say in my native Mansfield), a wet Sunday a couple of weeks ago saw me make a start on the second turnout I needed. Progress slowed when the weather picked up but over the last two weekends I've had chance to move the construction on and I completed it this morning. I was spurred on by having a steam up on Friday afternoon after work, something I don't think I've done for nearly two years! It was reading some of the topics on here that really gave me the encouragement I think - that and the gorgeous weather!
turnout.JPG
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This was just before completion. Once I'd got the check rails fitted and a tie bar soldered on I was outside to see how the geometry was going to look.
Track laying commences.JPG
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This section of the work was to complete the continuous run capability of the railway. Not something I intend to use in normal operations but handy for someone like me who has little experience of live steam and wants to 'get the feel' for running locos. It was blooming hot out there today but I sweated my way up to lunch by getting a suitable alignment for the turnouts. I got it pinned down before sausage rolls intervened. This piece of track runs from the crossing loop at the intermediate station of Woodhouse Eaves and the end of the run round loop at the terminal station of Shepshed. It also includes the loco release turnout turnout at Shepshed. The loop points at the other end have been there for some time but were only run on for the first time last Friday and have served no function so far. Just a short length of plain line in the platform road had been layed with the points but today I was able to close up the gap between the loco release points and this 'head of steel' in the platform line.

I stood back to admire the work and was pleased with what I saw. The back garden blackbird (we have a front garden one as well!) seemed impressed too judging by the time he spent watching me from the fence above my head, next doors apple tree and our copper chimney - maybe he was just bemused. I was going to leave it at that and get off down the allotment but the short gap in the loop at Woodhouse Eaves was just begging to be closed up. Like shepshed, there had been a (longer) length of plain line in the loop here for over two years, serving no purpose up until now. The first turnout layed today turns you off the loop there towards the end of the run-round at Shepshed. Going straight ahead leads along the loop at Woodhouse Eaves to the other loop points, which were the first points I layed. That must be well over three years ago now! I couldn't resist and a frenzy of rail cutting and sleeper sliding commenced. About an hour later - job done. I wasn't convinced I hadn't made a dogs dinner out of the alignment in this last bit but I've walked past it several times since and it's growing on me. The blackbird raised no objections at any rate! See what you think....
tracklaying ended 1.JPG
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tracklaying ended 2.JPG
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On the opposite side of Charnwood is one of my favourite bits of the railway's surroundings and when in flower at this time of year it's at it's best. The alpines are a lovely red and the violets have poked through amongst them this year.
flowers 1.JPG
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A little further along the line I'm still having problems with the Jackdaws, who seem to have the strength of Samson. I mentioned before that I've used some standard gauge ballast as retaining stones for the pea gravel. This gravel cess runs alongside the railway throughout it's length but on the higher and narrower embankments in this location the retention is necessary to prevent the pea gravel running away. These are at the larger end of standard gauge ballast dimensions and are not light. However, the Jackdaws seem to have no problem in hurling them down the embankment. You can just make some of them out at the toe, next to the blue bricks.
jackdaw rocks.JPG
jackdaw rocks.JPG (59.22 KiB) Viewed 6816 times
I'm going to have to resort to some cement I think - although they are clever birds and I expect they will turn up with jigger picks to move them again!

The problems previously described with track alignment haven't gone away, although they have reduced in magnitude, unfortunately there are one or two new sites now though. I've increased the track fixity in places by replacing 1/2" pins with 3/8" screws of thicker diameter, we'll see how that holds through the summer. A lot of the ground on which the railway stands was built up. The Filcriss legs were mainly in solid ground but the track bed was in the air for a lot of the length of the railway and the ground was built up around it. There is no doubt that this fill material has settled over the last twenty four months, by over an inch in places. This probably means that the lateral restraint hasn't been as stiff as I'd expected and may explain some of the movement I've experienced. Friday proved that it's not been detrimental to running though. What did catch me out was the vegetation. Having not run for over 18 months meant that I needed to do a bit of trimming before I started running. I've been trying to keep on top of it and I've had to reclaim the track from under the creeping Thymes about every six months. What I had forgotten was how wide in the beam a 16mm NG loco is! I had three derailments on the first run due to the buffer bean fouling vegetation that hurled the leading wheelset into the ballast! As I said earlier, I am still learning!

Progress is now paused again by the need for turnout construction, this time one leading from the loco release road at Shepshed into the quarry sidings. That's not quite true, because one day last week I loose layed the loop points for the Leicester terminus and dropped a couple of lengths of plain line in off the back, but this is all flapping about loose pending the clearance of wild violets from the track bed, which I don't want to do until they've finished flowering. This will enable me to fasten all this down and drop a couple more lengths on to take me onto the area designated for the steaming bay, but yet more turnouts are required to progress beyond this. However, I've got the bug again at the moment and a new supply of material arrived from Cliff Barker last week so maybe I can move things on a bit this summer. Hopefully it won't be another nine months before my next post - but don't hold you breath! ;)

Andrew
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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by LNR » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:48 pm

A great story Andrew, and good to see you back into it again. Hope you get the loco back into operation and get to enjoy the railway some. Now that you have somewhere to run I'm sure that will boost the enthusiasm to continue on.
Grant.

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by Soar Valley Light » Mon May 04, 2020 9:26 pm

Thanks for the encouragement Grant. It had good effect as I managed to produce another turnout over the weekend, and not just a straightforward one either, it was similar flexure curve out of curve, so needed a bit of thinking about.

It took until yesterday to find the opportunity to light an engine up to test the new trackwork (making 200% more steamings than last year!). The loco got round OK but I found the check blocks on one of the new crossing noses were a little high causing the flanges to bump over them. I need to get back out there with a needle file to take them down a touch.

I was amazed how much the vegetation had grown in the week since the last run - that did fetch the loco off, on more than one occasion! I also need to get out there and do some really serious cutting back - and then keep on top of it. The loco I'm using is a Ragleth with a body kit that includes a tender. The loco lumps it's way over most things, it's usually the tender that gets 'legged up' and lands on 'Olde England'. However, on the first run yesterday the loco itself came to grief in a spot where I new the vegetation was close but definitely clear. On investigating I discovered two things. First the buffer beam had got warm - to the point of being finger burning hot! secondly, it was a dirty great round pebble, tucked under the vegetation, that the loco buffer beam had rolled round into the motion, with inevitable results. I know exactly who to blame for that, it's those super strength Jackdaws again!!!

Andrew
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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by Andrew » Mon May 04, 2020 10:18 pm

I'm glad you're making progress Andrew, and getting some running in too. Those points sound fiendishly complicated...

Everything's growing crazily quickly at the moment, isn't it? I guess it's the near perfect combination of sun and rain we've been having - I'm hoping to clear my line (again!) this week prior to some weekend running. At the time I wondered if I was pandering to a bit of a whim, but I'm glad I made my gauging van, it makes pruning the lineside much easier - highly recommended!

All the best,

Andrew.

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Re: The Charnwood Forest Light Railway

Post by Jimmyb » Mon May 04, 2020 10:28 pm

Soar Valley Light wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 9:26 pm it was a dirty great round pebble, tucked under the vegetation, that the loco buffer beam had rolled round into the motion, with inevitable results. I know exactly who to blame for that, it's those super strength Jackdaws again!!!

Andrew
Andrew nice to hear you managed a run, sympathise with the jackdaw problem, I have crows that like to rearrange my landscape.

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