Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

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gilfachphil
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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by gilfachphil » Tue May 31, 2022 5:43 pm

The solvent I have been using is Methylene Chloride (Dichloromethane) from EMA Model Supplies (Plastic Weld) bought in my local model shop. This works very well. I'm not sure whether the transparent sheet is acrylic or another plastic. It will also stick this transparent material to plastikard.

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by GTB » Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:47 am

gilfachphil wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 5:43 pm The solvent I have been using is Methylene Chloride (Dichloromethane) from EMA Model Supplies (Plastic Weld) bought in my local model shop. This works very well. I'm not sure whether the transparent sheet is acrylic or another plastic. It will also stick this transparent material to plastikard.
Thanks for that info.

I've seen methylene chloride recommended for glueing Perspex (which is an acrylic) and you report good results with Plastic Weld. Plastic Weld also works well on ABS as well as acrylic, but I can't get it here since the Plastruct distributor in Oz went belly up.

The industrial plastic supplier where I buy my polystyrene sheet also sell acrylic sheet and it seems they stock an acrylic adhesive called Weld On, which looks similar enough to Plastic Weld to make it worth checking out.

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by Andrew » Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:29 am

Great advice everyone, thank you! I'll start a new thread when the project's underway...

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by philipy » Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:32 pm

gilfachphil wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 5:43 pm The solvent I have been using is Methylene Chloride (Dichloromethane) from EMA Model Supplies (Plastic Weld) bought in my local model shop. This works very well. I'm not sure whether the transparent sheet is acrylic or another plastic. It will also stick this transparent material to plastikard.
This post did surprise me, because I've always thought that Plasticweld would NOT stick acrylic.
I've just had a chance to investigate, and I know that formulations change over time, but a fairly new bottle of Plasticweld doesn't even mark the surface of a piece of actual Perspex which is approx 50 years old. So I suspect that you must have a different tye of transparent plastic - Lexan ( polycarbonate) perhaps?
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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by Jimmyb » Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:00 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:32 pm
gilfachphil wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 5:43 pm The solvent I have been using is Methylene Chloride (Dichloromethane) from EMA Model Supplies (Plastic Weld) bought in my local model shop. This works very well. I'm not sure whether the transparent sheet is acrylic or another plastic. It will also stick this transparent material to plastikard.
This post did surprise me, because I've always thought that Plasticweld would NOT stick acrylic.
I've just had a chance to investigate, and I know that formulations change over time, but a fairly new bottle of Plasticweld doesn't even mark the surface of a piece of actual Perspex which is approx 50 years old. So I suspect that you must have a different tye of transparent plastic - Lexan ( polycarbonate) perhaps?
I have some Carr's Butanone, and this will stick acrylic, and I think it will also stick perspex, it is MEK based, but not to be confused with Slater's Mek-Pac which DOES - NOT contain MEK

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by gilfachphil » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:10 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:32 pm
gilfachphil wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 5:43 pm The solvent I have been using is Methylene Chloride (Dichloromethane) from EMA Model Supplies (Plastic Weld) bought in my local model shop. This works very well. I'm not sure whether the transparent sheet is acrylic or another plastic. It will also stick this transparent material to plastikard.
This post did surprise me, because I've always thought that Plasticweld would NOT stick acrylic.
I've just had a chance to investigate, and I know that formulations change over time, but a fairly new bottle of Plasticweld doesn't even mark the surface of a piece of actual Perspex which is approx 50 years old. So I suspect that you must have a different tye of transparent plastic - Lexan ( polycarbonate) perhaps?
It was not me who started calling it acrylic, that was Andrew, I think.

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by Andrew » Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:17 pm

That's what PDF Models seem to refer to it as in their instructions, so I went with that!

The important thing to me is that, whatever it's made of, you've identified a glue that'll stick it together, and they sell it at my local model shop!

I'm looking forward to the kit arriving so I can start playing with it and working out what might work best to marry it to my RH chassis...

Cheers,

Andrew.

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by gilfachphil » Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:18 pm

Andrew wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:17 pm That's what PDF Models seem to refer to it as in their instructions, so I went with that!

The important thing to me is that, whatever it's made of, you've identified a glue that'll stick it together, and they sell it at my local model shop!

I'm looking forward to the kit arriving so I can start playing with it and working out what might work best to marry it to my RH chassis...

Cheers,

Andrew.
Just shows how much attention I paid to the instructions!

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by Phil.P » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:15 am

This would (partly) explain why I have not progressed with a PDF kit.. It is mainly 'acrylic', and I had expected Mek-Pak to do the business..
Neither that, Tamiya liquid cement, or the (admittedly ancient) bottle of Power bond, have been successful.

I was loath to go further, as you can end up with a build-up of adhesives, which eventually affects joint alignment, as well as strength. :dontknow:

I must try to find a local supplier, of small quantities.
That, or wait for Peterborough..

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by philipy » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:36 am

Sounds like a quick enquiry to PDF and ask what they suggest/recommend?
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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by GTB » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:03 pm

philipy wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:32 pm This post did surprise me, because I've always thought that Plasticweld would NOT stick acrylic.
Is there maybe more than one Plastic Weld available? Marketing depts. aren't the sharpest tools in the shed........

Anyway, this photo shows my last remaining and almost empty bottle of the 'Plastruct Plastic Weld' that used to be available here in Oz. It's the US version and the formula has changed over the years, as it used to contain chloroform, but is now dichloromethane (DCM) based.

The label has the statement "Multi-purpose, evaporative formula for bonding PLASTRUCT ABS, Styrene, Butyrate and Acrylic to itself or each other." US spelling and grammar, not mine........ :roll:

Plastic Weld.jpg
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Out of interest I ran a test on a few off-cuts of acrylic sheet using this Plastic Weld and the few remaining drops in the dichloromethane bottle. The acrylic is Shinkolite, a Japanese made acrylic sheet equivalent to Perspex. Genuine 'Perspex' disappeared from the Aust. market decades ago.

Both 'Plastic Weld' and DCM bonded the acrylic so strongly that after being left overnight I can't break the bond by hand. The test piece is at the front of the pic., but taking a photo of transparent plastic is basically wasted effort. Since Plastruct Plastic Weld has disappeared locally, I'll have to hope my reserve supply of dichloromethane holds out.


Out of interest, I also tried MEK (2-Butanone in IUPAC speak). It stuck a piece of polystyrene to a piece of acrylic with a bond stronger than the polystyrene. However the bond between two pieces of acrylic wasn't as strong as the joint made with DCM and I was able to peel the joint apart with my fingers without the acrylic breaking. Much as I'd expected, as MEK works well on polystyrene, but also makes weak bonds when used on ABS.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by philipy » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:37 pm

OK, I give in! :lol:
HOWEVER.. my test piece was a genuine piece of 1950's Perspex 'acquired' new from a UK Gov. department back in the late 1950's ( don't ask!) and it doesn't want to know about Plasticweld, however a more recent piece of genuine Chinese acrylic does stick with it. Don't ask me why the difference.
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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by GTB » Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:38 am

philipy wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:37 pm OK, I give in! :lol:
HOWEVER.. my test piece was a genuine piece of 1950's Perspex 'acquired' new from a UK Gov. department back in the late 1950's ( don't ask!) and it doesn't want to know about Plasticweld, however a more recent piece of genuine Chinese acrylic does stick with it. Don't ask me why the difference.
'50s Perspex was made by the old method of pouring the catalysed mixture into a cavity between two sheets of plate glass spaced at the desired final sheet thickness and left to set hard. The Perspex cement used back then was basically liquid acrylic resin that cured in the joint, rather than relying on welding the sheet together by dissolving it, like solvents do.

The Shinkolite sheet I used is probably 40+ yrs old (it's getting very difficult to remove the protective paper), but was made by the modern method of continuous casting. I assume the chinese manufacturers use the newer method, as it will be cheaper.

My guess? The older method makes a product that has had the time to form longer polymer chains as it cures, which are more solvent resistant.

It occurs to me that 'resin' 3D printers commonly use liquid acrylic resin that is light cured. What cements are recommended for sticking those together?

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by philipy » Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:30 am

GTB wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:38 am

It occurs to me that 'resin' 3D printers commonly use liquid acrylic resin that is light cured. What cements are recommended for sticking those together?
I can't say what is actually recomended, but I use Cyanoacrylate, whatever version is to hand at the time. I dont really like using them normally but it seems to work well in this context.
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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by Lonsdaler » Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:18 pm

Phil.P wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:15 am
I must try to find a local supplier, of small quantities.
That, or wait for Peterborough..

Phil.P
If, like me, you don't have a local model shop, it is available via online suppliers
EMA Plastic Weld Glue Cement Glue For H ... /d/5puwEIr although it's not as cheap (but goes a long way!)
Phil

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My Line - https://gardenrails.org/forum/viewtopic ... 41&t=11077

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by gilfachphil » Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:34 pm

More on Trefor
IMG_1374.jpeg
IMG_1374.jpeg (3.11 MiB) Viewed 3330 times
Whilst in primer there was some filling of some of the edge joints with Cataloy paste (knifing putty) followed by sanding and respraying until I was satisfied. Much more of this could be done by a perfectionist like our friend Peter B but I felt it was good enough for me.

The blue paint is a rattle can from the local (small) DIY store. There was a very limited range of colours. The blue has actually worked out well, it is quite a different shade to the dark blue of the 'Glaslyn' diesel.

The roof was the last piece of construction to be tackled. Difficult to see the end supports in the picture but the spaces for three more in the body of the loco are obvious. The kit includes centre bearers with an extra curved piece to be fitted on each side giving a reasonably solid item. A piece of 0.5mm black plastic laser cut to size for the roof and with a hole for the chimney and two for the safety valve outlet pipes is supplied. I felt this was too thin and so attempted to make a two layer roof from a new sheet of plastikard, laminating the second layer on top having first glued one layer to the roof supports. The supports and roof were held in place on the body with spring clips and the solvent run carefully between the loose three and roof and left to set. This formed a reasonable curved structure and could have been glued in place to the body, adding the second layer of black plastic glued quite well though there were some creases apparent. My trip to the Llangollen show yielded a sheet of 1.5mm material, a much better thickness, so using some solvent, scissors and brute force most of the thin plastic was removed and a quick skim with a Stanley knife got rid of the rest, leaving the three beams ready to try again.
IMG_1373.jpeg
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Here he is again with the new roof placed on, once I have used glue (my present choice is Power Bond, which was on demonstration at Llangollen, and which so far I have had excellent results in using) the roof should fit tightly and the uplifted corners behave themselves.

Phil

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by Andrew » Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:17 am

I really like that!

The colour's great, and you've achieved a really nice finish...

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by Peter Butler » Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:19 am

I love it Phil, good strong colour and well finished...
(signed, 'the Perfectionist!!!)
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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by gilfachphil » Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:27 am

Thanks Guys 8)

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Re: Yr Hen Felin & Yr Orsaf Newydd

Post by ge_rik » Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:51 am

Very nice indeed! :thumbup:

Rik
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