Two into one will go.

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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by philipy » Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:50 pm

Well I've ummed and ahhed for a long time, before we finally bit the bullet a month ago. I'll admit that much of the final decision was gut feeeling rather than pounds, shillings and pence.
Although I take Peter's points about the relative effects of environmental factors of all sorts, most of them are unquantifiable in real day-to-day terms and therefore I ignore them since I can do nothing about them. What is certain is that the sales of new petrol and diesel cars will be banned in the not too distant future and therefore there will be no option but to go electric, so the only decision to be faced is when to make the jump? Do it now or wait until the last minute? As time goes by and more and more people switch, the price of petrol and diesel will inevitably rise as the market shrinks and petrol stations reduce the number of pumps and replace them with chargers ( BP & Shell are already going down that route).
In my mind there is little point in going to one of the various flavours of hybrid, the major factor is range. My car has (will have) a theoretical range of 282miles on a full battery. The reviews suggest a real figure of around 250-260, and as Peter rightly says that does depend on the weather ( literally) reducing in the cold, and also dependant on the use of heaters, air con, etc. We mostly use the car for relatively local journeys but when we go to visit my son and grandaughter that is a round trip of just over 200miles, so that is covered whatever the weather! Earlier electric vehicles and most hybrids had limited ranges of around 100 or less on battery, so unless use is only limited to a 30 mile commute and the local shops, they were pretty useless.
I have installed a 7.4kWh home charger unit which will charge the battery from 0%-100% in about 10 hours at a cost of £8-96, can a Volvo Estate do 250 miles for less than 10 quid? In reality, it is rare that it will be completely drained ( it is recommended to keep the charge between 20%-80%), so it will top up overnight for most situations and i can program the charger to use off-peak leccy and how much charge I want to put in. A public fast charger will do 80% in between 30 & 45 mins depending on the start level. We are planning a trip to Scotland in October and I anticipate a stop halfway-ish to top up, have some sandwiches, use the facilities and walk the dog - should all dovetail nicely.
The public charge network is growing very fast now and unbelievably some of them are even free to use! The attached graphic is from a website called "Zap-Map and shows all the current public charge points in the UK ( you need to zoom in a looong way to be able to read it) and most of them have multiple connections and they recorded 109 new charge point locations last 30 days alone. As of today there are 10,928 connections in 3057 locations across the country. Those that aren't free, cost anything up to about 40 pence per kWh ( compared to my 14.3p for domestic) but even that will give me around 250 miles for £25.
Add to all that, the fact that there is £0 tax and it only requires one service per year and there is far less to go wrong without an engine. I must admit that without thinking, I was initially surprised and put off that there is no such thing as a 'manual' option. I've never really liked automatics, but, thinking about it, it's exactly the same as turning the knob on a battery ( or trackpower) loco! I'm very far from being a boy-racer but it does 0-62 in a fraction under 8 seconds, so plenty of power when needed and it is soooo smooth to drive. Peter mentioned battery service life, mine has a 7 year 100,000mile warranty.
The final tipping point in the decision, which probably won't apply to most of you, concerns the financing. I still have a chunk of cash in the tax free part of my pension pot. That tax advantage disappears in a couple of years time, so by taking it out now I save a big chunk of future tax and the car is effectively virtually free!

As you might have guessed, I'm sold ( or bought really I suppose!), but of course others may have a different view.
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by pandsrowe » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:24 am

Whilst the arguments over the pros and cons of electric cars will continue to rage for years l feel, hardly anyone ever mentions their cost to purchase. I recently went to look at the Nissan Micra as a replacement for my wife's aging Mitsubishi Colt, that starts at around £14250 which I think is expensive enough. Whilst in the showroom I looked at the electric Leaf just out of interest, it is of similar size to the Micra but it starts at an eye watering £25950! Needless to say l won't be buying one, in fact I think I'll just keep the Colt going and save myself a lot of cash.
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by ge_rik » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:41 pm

Like the very first digital watches; which were ridiculously expensive; I said at the time I would wait until they dropped in price before getting one. By the time I actually bought my first digital watch, they were giving them away free at petrol stations if you bought four or more gallons of fuel.

I'll wait until electric cars drop in price before I get one ........ Mind you, I somehow doubt they will be giving electric cars away with purchases of petrol ..... Unless, of course, the price of petrol is raised to £10k a litre........ that might incentivise us maybe?

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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by Peter Butler » Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:26 pm

Certainly, to me, the cost of buying an electric car would be prohibitive, but my main point is one of the inevitability of enforcement to go electric. I have read somewhere that a study shows an electric car would take approximately ten years or 100,000 miles to offset its carbon footprint, so, taking into account the sourcing and preparation of special minerals required, production of the vehicle, the infrastructure necessary to charge it etc. I remain sceptical of the benefits. True it is early days and improvements are always around the corner, but I am happy to run my gas guzzler!
I'm sure Philip, and others already committed to go electric, have the necessary off-road space to use a trailing charge cable without causing a hazard. But, what about the huge number of households whose properties front directly onto public pavements, as found in so many industrial housing areas of the early 20th century? Where can those households take advantage of off-peak charging? BTW, I believe off-peak electricity is (was?) called 'Economy Seven' which gives reduced cost at night but is off-set by increased charges during the day. (That certainly used to be the case).
ps I have never had a digital watch either .
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by philipy » Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:34 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:26 pm
ps I have never had a digital watch either .
Nor have I, and as I've said before, I don't even have a mobile phone!
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by Jimmyb » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:15 am

philipy wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:34 pm
Peter Butler wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:26 pm
ps I have never had a digital watch either .
Nor have I, and as I've said before, I don't even have a mobile phone!
My phone is mobile, but only as far as the cable will reach ;)

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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by FWLR » Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:03 am

Firstly I want say that is some car you have there Peter. I love the interior and the those seats are fantastic. Look very comfy indeed. The colour is superb too. Where have you painted the panels, do they all unbolt.

Has for the electric debate. I have no issue with them really, the only thing is the batteries for me. Yes they are expensive and the production of them are a concern, but isn't technology moving faster nowadays. I have a mobile phone and have done since they first came out with the number one seller at the time Nokia. You could only phone or txt then, you certainly couldn't send photos, although you could take a photo, but they weren't up too much. Look at them now, they are miniature computers. You can do all sort of things with them. Computers were huge things and now look at them and they are a lot more powerful.

So my thoughts are, yes they will get the batteries to last a lot longer and maybe they will come down in price. That is another issue for many, they are ridiculously expensive compared to petrol or diesel cars. HGV's will be even more so too, so the cost of goods will go up tremendously also. When they do stop producing new cars that run on fossil fuels, the ordinary car owner and I am not saying electric owners are any different, will not be able to afford to go anywhere then, as Philip pointed out the cost of fossil fuel will by like finding a rainbow at the bottom of the garden.

I think that it is foolish to think that going green is the be all and end all for us. By the time it has done any significantly improvement to the world to have changed what the media and all the rest of the doom mongers say will happen, it will be more of a natural thing that will change the world, not us humans. look at the way the world has had it's ice ages and then the warming up, they happen every 10 to 20 thousand years or so. It maybe more, so don't quote me... :lol:

Everyone is entitled to do and use what they think is best for them and hopefully we can change the world for the better with being more tolerate to each other. :dontknow:

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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by Peter Butler » Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:38 am

Nothing here to worry about then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6eS6JzBn0k
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by FWLR » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:55 am

Over the top Yanks again. :roll:

Aren't they the one's with China and Russia who burn the most fossil fuels.... :dontknow:

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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by Peter Butler » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:01 pm

Update on the transfer of alloy wheels from the donor car to mine. I have had them sandblasted and powder coated and they look brand new. Today (having had to wait for an appointment) the tyres were transferred and the wheels fitted by professionals. With new valves and balanced they look great and perform perfectly. I am delighted.....
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Just a little more work to do on the paint patches where the lacquer has peeled and it will be restored to its former glory!
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by Old Man Aaron » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:23 am

Wouldn't have thought all that would fit in the back, impressive. Always nice to see older vehicles being taken care of, rather than treated as disposable. It's certainly coming up well.
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by Peter Butler » Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:32 pm

philipy wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:44 am
Andrew wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:37 am We're half wondering whether to go electric next time...
We have literally just bitten that particular bullet... current delivery date is said to be 4th October....!
Philip, I see from another thread you have been to Scotland during last week, would that have been in your new e-car which was due on 4th October? I would be interested to know how you managed for power and re-charge facilities? Also, overall performance over such a distance.
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by philipy » Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:03 pm

Peter Butler wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:32 pm
Philip, I see from another thread you have been to Scotland during last week, would that have been in your new e-car which was due on 4th October? I would be interested to know how you managed for power and re-charge facilities? Also, overall performance over such a distance.
Hi Peter,
Yes indeed. :D

The car itself was fine and a pleasure to drive, even though I'm still trying to get to grips with all the electronic program options. It's far worse than a video cassette recorder and every car should come equipped with a 5 year old who can understand it! :lol: :lol:

Seriously though, before we left I had charged it to put in a small amount simply to get experience at a public "Rapid" charger, which does 20-80% in about 50 minutes.Then before we left I topped it up to 100% at home with our 7Kw charger, which takes about 5.5 hours to 100% . The 100% charge gives an actual range of about 230miles - slightly less than the theoretical max but that is partly because the car was fully loaded and also the weather was cold and raining so the heater was on.

In order to avoid all the roadworks on the M6, especially on a Monday morning, I decided to go up the M1/A1 and cut across on the A66 at ScotchCorner. My plan was to recharge at Wetherby Services and then again at one of the M6/M74 services in the Carlisle-Gretna Area.

First problem was Wetherby Services - 3 x Charging pillars - one out of action and the other two occupied, plus a couple of cars waiting. No way to know how long they were likely to be there since their drivers had gone off into the services somewhere. So we looked on the map and decided to drive on up to Ripon which had two charging locations. The first one in a public carpark had two cars charging and a spare space between them, the problem was that the bay widths were too small to get into the middle one! So we went off to the second option, in a Morrisons car park. A really old fashioned charging pillar which required downloading an app and then opening an account!! So, we looked on the map again and discovered a Shell and a BP garage with chargers on the A64 at Topcliffe, so off we went yet again. This time the Shell garage had a single unoccupied charger and we plugged in, used the facilities and took the dog for a walk for about 40mins whilst the battery charged up to 80% ( 80% is recommended both to avoid stressing the battery and also because it takes as long to go from 80->100% as it does to go from 20->80%).
Off we went again and stopped at Annandale Services on M74. No actual probs with this one and charged up to 80% again, although actually the Charger did have a fault and we didn't have to pay for the charge!

We were staying about halfway up the Eastern side of Loch Lomond and arrived there with about 30% battery. The Scottish charger situation is a nightmare, because there is a Scottish Government organisation called Chargeplace Scotland which is the single contact point for all public chargers in Scotland. Trouble is that there are apparently 9 equipment manufacturers, 33 local authorities and 300-odd charger owners and all CPS can do is report a fault and ask the owner to get somebody to fix it, they have no direct control of anything. As a result, the nearest town to where were staying is Balloch - 10.5 miles - and there are 7 chargers in Balloch and all have been out of action since August! There is one in Arrochar (about 12 miles) which has been broken since the end of September. There is one at an Esso garage on the A82 in Dumbarton (about 15 miles) which has been out of action since the middle of October. There are 4 or 5 chargers in Helensburgh ( about 10.5 miles) and miraculously all were working! I charged up there twice but I did have to call CPS on both occasions. The first because there was some sort of connection problem which the guy on the phone sorted and got the charge started and I subsequently discovered that I wasn't charged for. The second occasion I had to call them because there was no ID number on the Charger Pillar so I couldn't tell the system which one I wanted to use. Again a quick phone call got it sorted out.

We were due to come home on Monday this week, but the weather was foul all last week with pretty much non-stop torrential rain ( The Loch Lomond water level was 2 FEET higher than normal and that is an awful lot of water!) plus I was concerned that we might get stuck in the closed roads and protest nonsense surrounding the COP26 in Glasgow on Monday morning, so we cut our losses and came back on Sunday. There was one day without much rain whilst we were there and we had a trip over to Callander and Stirling. Before coming back I did an 80% charge in Helensburgh, as I've said, but then the owner of the B&B offered to allow me to charge up fully on his domestic supply, which I gladly took advantage of - took 9 hours to top up the extra 20%. We came straight back down the M74/M6 and stopped at Todhills Services and Lymm Services top up to 80% each time. No problems with either charge and arrived back home with about 40 miles left in the battery.

Sorry this has been a bit long, but you did ask! Overall, I don't regret the car, but the public charging network is a joke at the moment.Even though there are allegedly 25,000 chargers in the uk and growing by about 150-200 a week, a lot of them are either too slow to be of practical use, or broken!
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by Peter Butler » Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:37 pm

Thank you Philip,
much more information than I expected but a very useful guide for all interested parties reading it.
I appreciate it is early days for the system to be fully operational, but Scotland appears to be way behind in providing a satisfactory service. These are the issues which are not widely reported in the rush to persuade more people to go electric.
Your every-day, local usage should present no problems, I hope!
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by ge_rik » Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:47 pm

Thanks for the detailed info, Philip. At the moment it does seem as if the infrastructure is way behind where it should be to encourage us to go electric. Although I am very much in favour of cutting our emissions, I'm reluctant to abandon my fossil fuel powered form of transport until charging points are more plentiful.

Our local garden centre is being upgraded. They released the plans showing in a 200+ space car park they were installing just three charge points. Hardly future proofing their facilities!!!

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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by philipy » Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:20 pm

I think at the moment there are basically two types of user, "Mr/Mrs Average" and what used to be called "Mondeo Man".
The average journey in the Uk is only about 10 miles I believe and most car commuters don't travel more than around 30 miles each way. All of those users could charge up at home or at work or at the supermarket once every few days. ( Yes, I know that not everyone has the off road parking necessary for private chargers).

For more intense users, the public network is not as good as it should be as I found out last week. However I think that it will improve steadily as the market shakes down. At the moment there is a sizeable number of smallish charger network companies and I strongly suspect that there will be a steady rate of mergers and takeovers. There was one earlier this year when "Ecotricity" was taken over by "Gridserve". The Ecotricity chargers are old fashioned and unreliable and require apps and membership to use. Gridserve are currently replacing them all at the rate of one location a day with uptodate simple contactless card payment machines. I experienced both during the week - one I walked away from but the other was easy.
Plus Gridserve are building "Electric Forecourt" charging hubs which are like a Motorway service area, the first is open in Braintree. I haven't used one yet, but they look amazing. I suspect that this will accelerate and, obviously, conventional service areas will have to gradually replace most of their conventional fuel pumps with EV chargers.
https://www.gridserve.com/braintree-overview/

There is quite some way to go but as I said, so far I don't regret my purchase decision.
Philip

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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by ge_rik » Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:27 am

I think my hesitancy is because, although most of my journeys are local, a few times during the year, we take the car on much longer trips - visiting relatives, going on holiday, visiting narrow gauge railways, visiting fellow modellers, etc. I'm hoping my present vehicle has got at least ten years of life in it before it staggers to a halt, so I think I've got a bit of leeway before the decision is forced on me.

Rik
PS There was something on the radio yesterday saying people should wear their clothes for longer than a year to help save the planet. My attitude to clothes is similar to my attitude on cars. Use them until they fall apart ..... 😬
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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by philipy » Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:02 am

ge_rik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:27 am
PS There was something on the radio yesterday saying people should wear their clothes for longer than a year to help save the planet. My attitude to clothes is similar to my attitude on cars. Use them until they fall apart ..... 😬
I still have a pair of socks, which I wear from time to time, which were given to me as a Christmas present by my first wife's maiden aunt in about 1985!
Philip

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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by Andrew » Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:09 am

philipy wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:02 am
ge_rik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:27 am
PS There was something on the radio yesterday saying people should wear their clothes for longer than a year to help save the planet. My attitude to clothes is similar to my attitude on cars. Use them until they fall apart ..... 😬
I still have a pair of socks, which I wear from time to time, which were given to me as a Christmas present by my first wife's maiden aunt in about 1985!
Bravo! It alarms me that anyone wouldn't do that. Underwear aside (always best to leave your underwear aside on a public forum, I think...), I've got no idea how old much of my wardrobe is, 'cos it was secondhand in the first place!

Your "long journey in an electric car" experience sounds quite similar to a chap who wrote an article in the Guardian about driving his EV from Lands End to John o'Groats, which I read with interest because the latter 3/4 of that is a journey I've made almost annually for many years... It's here, if you're interested: https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ectric-car

I admire your pioneering spirit Philip!

Cheers,

Andrew.

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Re: Two into one will go.

Post by Jimmyb » Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:14 am

ge_rik wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:27 am
Rik
PS There was something on the radio yesterday saying people should wear their clothes for longer than a year to help save the planet. My attitude to clothes is similar to my attitude on cars. Use them until they fall apart ..... 😬
I have nothing less than a year old, and the suit I am currently wearing to work (to wear it out) is my "demob" suit from 25 years ago. I did send some shirts and stuff to the charity (road side bag collection) and these were bought whilst still serving, a couple of these picked up in the middle east, just after the first gulf war had finished, and i needed some "going out" clothes.

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