LNWR/GS&WR/GSR "Lake"

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IrishPeter
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LNWR/GS&WR/GSR "Lake"

Post by IrishPeter » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:07 am

I discovered a while back that I had painted some of my rolling stock the wrong colour. I had unfortunately painted them in post-1934 maroon, rather than the Purple Lake of 1925-34 which was used for n.g and 4-wh stock only! Given my 'painting skills' I am looking for a decent match in a rattle can for Great Southern Railways Purple Lake. It is roughly the same colour as the LNWR variety, maybe half a shade lighter. Just to make things a little complicated I live in the USA. Does anyone have any ideas?

Many thanks,
Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by invicta280 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:51 am

I'm sure Phoenix Precision paints stock most LNWR colours. I know they do engine black (blackberry black) coach plum P379 and i think they still do coach white P380 (though that may be discontinued).

I thought 'lake' was a more reddish/deep maroon. The coach plum
which i have is a purplish brown.

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Post by IrishPeter » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:11 am

I am used to hearing the LNWR colour referred to as either 'Coach Plum' or 'Purple Lake' though I suspect the latter name is an Isle of Man Railway-ism. The IMR used Plum and off-white in the 1930s with some vehicles lingering in that scheme until the mid-1950s. It made a comeback in the 1980s, but the synthetic version did not wear as well as the original! Depending of the light the IMR version looked almost black, dark plum with a hint of brown, or dark brown with a hint of plum! I sometimes wonder if some of the wartime 'dark brown' repaints were actually 'plum.'
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by GTB » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:19 pm

The LNWR colour is usually referred to as purple brown, although I've also seen it referred to as purple lake. The Caledonian also used it.

It is a very old colour and is still available from any paint shop in Oz that stocks heritage colours. It was very popular here in the '70s under the name Mission Brown...........

BS381c no. 449 purple brown is probably the same nominal colour, basically a dark chocolate brown with a bit of crimson in it.

Can't help you with a ready mixed paint. The Victorian Railways used a similar colour on pass cars before WW1 under the name Haematite, but I mix my own to match a paint chip.

I finish models with a coat of varnish and the yellow of the varnish gives a richer finish than the colour name would suggest. UK practice included several coats of varnish on pass stock, so you need to allow for that in choosing a colour.

The Germans used a camouflage color that translates as purple brown and you will find it in the military model paint ranges, but it looks too red to me.

Graeme

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Post by invicta280 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:53 pm

I painted this one with LNWR coach plum and LNWR white. It looks brown but close up or in strong light it has a purplish sheen to it - not very evident in this pic though!

Image

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Post by IrishPeter » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:46 am

For me it usually looks "off black" in photographs,  When I have seen it in real life it has come across as being very dark brown with a hint of purple.  Plum is an apt description as it is more or less the colour of ripe plums, but colour in itself is a beggarto describe! I am almost wondering if 1945-50 era CIE green might be easier... ! No, it wouldn't be - believe me!

Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by GTB » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:51 pm

IrishPeter:74056 wrote:Plum is an apt description as it is more or less the colour of ripe plums, but colour in itself is a beggarto describe!  
What sort of ripe plum..........

Plums range from light green through red, blue and brown, depending on the variety.   :roll:

Describing colours is difficult with words, which is why colour systems such as the Munsell and CIELAB (no not that CIE...) were developed and are used by standards organisations and paint manufacturers. Marketing picks the paint names, which is why the mob I worked for had three colour names that all came out out of the same drum of paint.

FWIW, BS381c purple brown has a Munsell reference of 7.5R 2/4, which means it is a very dark red.......

Basically, just add black to the GSR crimson you used before, until you get a colour that looks about right to you.

Graeme

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Post by IrishPeter » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:36 am

Graeme,

Your post got me thinking - which is always a dangerous thing. So lateral thinking last night - whilst a blowing the froth off a couple of beers - gave me an idea. The upshot was that I gave a piece of scrap ply a blast with red-brown undercoat then two coats of dark brown and one of red applied whilst the brown was still wet - ah, the joys of rattle cans! The result is a very dark red, which will probably pass for the GSR colour which was not quite as intense as the LNWR version.

Thanks for the tips!

Yours,
Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by Paul H » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:46 am

Peter,
I've found Rustoleum Painters' Touch Kona Brown to be a good colour. I'm using it on my DJB Engineering IMR small F coach kits to good effect. Its a dark brown with a distinctly plum cast to it. It is in the same vein as my old Bing LNWR coaches for shade, which I would guess is about right.

Best of luck,
Paul

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Post by IrishPeter » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:19 am

Which small 'F' are you taking a crack at?  I have an home bodged F1-6 series coach gradually taking shape for when the S&C Light Railway and Tramway is in its more light railway moods. Of course, I am getting to the stage where I will have to give the underframe a test run. I am thnking I will be OK with a 35' vehicle with bogies at 26' centres on 10' radius curves, but you never know. I think this forum has a few monuments to my problems with long vehicles on the S&CLR&T

Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by Paul H » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:35 am

Peter,
F6 is currently in paint and F19 is in glue. F27 is still totally flat in the box.

Paul

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Post by IrishPeter » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:07 pm

That's interesting - they are all vehicles I associate with the Peel/Ramsey side of things in the 1950s and 60s, though where they were in the purple lake paint era I am not sure. F6 is the "Lord Lucan" of Manx Railway vehicles - it disappeared into the Rampton Collecton in 1975/6 and has not been seen since. It is the last survivor of the 1876 batch. F27 is due to go into the works for a major overhaul soon so she can be used as a support vehicle for the Bar Set. I wonder what colour she will end up.*

Peter in AZ

* For those wondering F19 copped it in the St Johns Carriage Shed fire.
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by Paul H » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:42 am

Peter,
I'm stretching the historical clock at the moment, given that my Peveril is, like all the others, in Indian Red. However, as Peveril was one of the first locos to wear Indian Red (1947 repaint according to photographic evidence and records in Boyd), it is plausible that F6 and F19 MAY have been sporting plum or brown and cream at the time of Peveril's repaint. F6 was recorded as being in a variation of the red and cream livery in 1950, but I've found no clear photos in any of my books of the carriage during and immediately after the war. F20 was supposedly sporting an all over tan livery, and a small half brake appears in one 1950 photo (double headed Douglas and Sutherland at Ramsey), but the angle is oblique enough that the livery is quite difficult to make out.

I'm hopeful that Accucraft will provide the option of Holly Green on any future Peacocks they offer. I'm particularly interested in the revitalization undertaken in the 5 or so years immediately following WWII, especially 1946 to 1948 when the rainbow of carriage liveries was in full swing. I seem to have digressed a bit...

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Post by IrishPeter » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:15 pm

I think you are on pretty safe ground with Brown, Lake, or Lake/Off-white carriages in 1947/8 with recently overhauled locos in red. Those were the rainbow fleet days of the Isle of Man Railway all right. Cream upper panels do not come along until 1949/50. The oldest published colour photos (from 1949) show all the visible carriages in brown, or lake with no identifiably red vehicles in sight, and definitely no red and cream. However, only about a dozen vehicles out of 85 are visible!

Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by IrishPeter » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:26 am

Well, the paint problem was finally solved on a trip to the local hobby shed.  I strayed into the dolls' house section and discovered a rack for 'Americana' acrylic paints - manufactured for DecoArt, Stanford. KY, 'in the USA' - which makes a change from China!  The colour is Black Plum, which over grey primer looks right for the early GSR version used 1925-34.  Best bit was the stuff is $1.19 for 2oz, which is not exactly going to break the bank.  

I figured out it was the right colour because it has a disconcerting habit of looking maroon in some lights, black in others, and purple in others when varnished.

Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by IrishPeter » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:22 am

I finally managed to get my paws on a can of Rustoleum Painter's Touch Kona Brown from, of all places, the local Mal-Wart.  Much as hate Mal-Wart, the church vacuum had finally given up, and we needed a replacement, so I thought I might as well check out the rattle cans, and the work trousers whilst there.

Yep, Kona Brown is the closest match I have come across.  I hit the T&D Brake Compo and the MNR brake van with it, and they now look fit for GSR crests and lettering.  I have a little four-wheeler third that needs painting which I will do tomorrow.  I ran out of light tonight. This far south and with no DST the evenings are rather short.

Cheers,
Peter in AZ
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Post by Paul H » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:52 pm

Peter,
I had not seen this thread 3 years ago when it was originally active, but you hit upon the colour that I was going to suggest. It was what I found in a rattle can that looked right for Isle of Man bogie coaches is the lake and cream livery.

Paul

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Post by IrishPeter » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:29 pm

Paul,

When I had seen it before I thought it was a bit too brown, so I discounted it. Seems I was misled by being under fluorescent light. Good suggestion on your part!

How is modelling the IMR rainbow era going?

Peter
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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