Day's Rail Tractor

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cooltrain
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Day's Rail Tractor

Post by cooltrain » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:01 am

Hi all,
I've been pondering for a long time as to what would be a suitable diesel/petrol outline loco for the Selby Granite Tramway. A tramway the size of mine most likely would not be able to afford something like a Ruston. So I'm considering building a model of Day's rail tractor. Rail tractors are extremely common on tramways and light railways in Australia. They were popular due to them usually being cheaper than a steam locomotive, not requiring any special qualification to drive and spares being more readily available. Day's are believed to have built around 50 rail tractors in their factory in South Melbourne, Victoria, between 1926 and the mid 1940's.
Day's ex Cheetham Salt historic.jpg
Day's ex Cheetham Salt historic.jpg (10.53 KiB) Viewed 6228 times
These rail tractors went on to work at various industries including sawmills, salt works, etc. There are a few examples of Day's rail tractors remaining, 3 of which reside at tramway I volunteer at.

My idea was to use a PS models chassis with buffer beams and running boards made out of plastic card and a 3D printed tractor motor body. With the motor and batteries hidden under the body and the RC gear between the frames.
Sm45-16mm-scale-Motor-Chassis-Kit-45mm-Narrow-Gauge.jpg
Sm45-16mm-scale-Motor-Chassis-Kit-45mm-Narrow-Gauge.jpg (31.09 KiB) Viewed 6228 times
But I have very limited experience with this sort of thing. I've fitted anything with RC either. So I need to figure out what I need to fit the rail tractor with RC, how to wire it and weather or not I can get the batteries and RC equipment to fit on such a small vehicle. Can anyone give me some advice?
Thanks,

Ronan.
"So what's yer name?" asked the driver.
"Charlie, sir."
"I don't address my firemen by their Christian names, son. Give me your surname."
"Darling, sir."
"Okay, Charlie, start shoveling."

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Re: Day's Rail Tractor

Post by Big Jim » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:31 am

Don't worry it is not overly difficult. if you have a look at some of Rik's posts on here (user name Ge_Rik) and his blog https://riksrailway.blogspot.co.uk/sear ... /electrics. You should find what you need.

RC Trains website has some good information as wellhttp://rctrains.co.uk/Support.htm

You will have to think quite hard about how to fit it all in, possibly a small wagon with the electrics in might be the answer. You can fit a quart into a pint pot and radio control small engines, I have done it. https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?f ... AZ#p125972

Have fun

It looks like an interesting and unusual prototype.
If at first you don't succeed, use a bigger hammer!

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Re: Day's Rail Tractor

Post by philipy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:13 am

I agree with Jim, that RC Trains stuff ( Deltang ) is the way to go as far as the RC is concerned and Rik's blogs should tell you all you need to know about setting it up.
As for how to fit it all in a Tractor loco, I suspect you may struggle. Take a look at Tony Bird's various threads on motorising toys, especially the recent one on Electric Chassis ( https://gardenrails.org/forum/viewtopic ... 37&t=11771), they may give you some useful idea's.

I must admit to never having heard of Day's before, but having a quick look around, there doesn't seem to be much physical connection between the engine/body and the footplate, so I'm not sure you'll have enough volume inside for anything like enough batteries etc. You may be forced to Jim's suggestion of a towed vehicle for them.
Your idea of a 3D printed body, I suspect isn't altogether practical either, tbh. It looks very complex from the sides so you'd either have to put up with a much simplified/crude appearance or print lots of small bits and assemble them subsequently. Either way the walls would need to be fairly thick to support everything and cut down the internal volume even more.

I hope this doesn't sound too negative, but I'd hate for you to waste a lot of time and effort on something you'd be unhappy with.
I'd suggest that you start off by doing an accurate drawing of the Tractor so that you can see exactly what space you have to play with and what variations from the prototype would be acceptable.
Philip

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Re: Day's Rail Tractor

Post by ge_rik » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:53 pm

Hi Ronan
As other have suggested, Deltang eqt is a good way of getting radio control into a small space. Because most Deltang receivers include an ESC (electronic speed controller) on the same very small circuit board, you are not wasting space by having to squeeze in a separate rx (receiver) and an ESC. Also, they are designed to operate from as little as one 3.7v li-ion battery, which again saves a lot of space. You could probably squeeze in a single 14500 (AA sized) li-ion battery and the electronics into that space - the body looks like it might be generous enough.

Take a look at a couple of the accounts of battery builds on my blog and also some of Tony's threads - he's great at squeezing quarts into pint pots:

eg
http://riksrailway.blogspot.com/2015/03 ... radio.html
http://riksrailway.blogspot.com/2017/02 ... ually.html
http://riksrailway.blogspot.co.uk/2015/ ... mplex.html

Actually, looking at each of these, they make the task look more complicated than it needs to be because I added other things like auto-shuttle and sound. Maybe I should describe a very basic conversion on my blog as well, just to show how simple it can be.

Sounds like I've just given myself a job

Rik
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Re: Day's Rail Tractor

Post by ge_rik » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:27 pm

ge_rik wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:53 pm ......... Maybe I should describe a very basic conversion on my blog as well, just to show how simple it can be.
Just ordered myself a basic IP Engineering loco kit as the basis for a simple build/battery rc conversion. Will produce a blog entry for it as soon as it's done.

Rik
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Re: Day's Rail Tractor

Post by cooltrain » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:51 pm

Thanks for the advice all, very much appreciated. :thumbup: Hopefully I'll be able to figure it all out with the information I've got now. Talked to some friends about 3D printing the body and they recon it's doable.

Looking forward to seeing this IP loco you're going to build Rik. I'll watch your blog for when you post about it.
Thanks,

Ronan.
"So what's yer name?" asked the driver.
"Charlie, sir."
"I don't address my firemen by their Christian names, son. Give me your surname."
"Darling, sir."
"Okay, Charlie, start shoveling."

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Re: Day's Rail Tractor

Post by GTB » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:13 pm

cooltrain wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:01 am Hi all,
I've been pondering for a long time as to what would be a suitable diesel/petrol outline loco for the Selby Granite Tramway. A tramway the size of mine most likely would not be able to afford something like a Ruston.
Australian quarries/mines big enough to have a steam tramway generally went straight to road trucks, but there are a couple of possibilities.

There is a Jim Fainges drawing of the 0-4-0 version of the Day's tractor online here. No dimensions unfortunately, so to rescale the drawing to 16mm scale to find out if things will fit, you'll need to measure up either the chassis at Alexandra, or the more complete tractor somewhere at Puffing Billy.

http://www.zelmeroz.com/album_rail/qld/jf72/jf_x15.jpg

A while ago I looked at whether it was feasible to build a self contained powered model of the larger 0-6-0 version of the Day's tractor like the ATT restored RUOAK example and decided it was just possible to squeeze a small geared motor inside the tractor with chain drive to the rear axle of the chassis, the Deltang receiver would fit above the axles under the floor and a couple of lithium cells could fit inside the headstocks, but it would be very light and traction would be limited. I decided a better proposition would be to ballast the loco and put the batteries inside a hollowed out load of timber on a pair of log bogies and permanently couple the two. The 0-4-0 is smaller again so the batteries would probably need to be in a separate vehicle. Both are probably better suited to building in 7/8" scale.

A couple of possible alternatives you've got at the ATT museum are the ex-Army type Malcolm Moore and the ex-SR&WSC C396 Malcolm Moore.

The Ida Bay Railway in Tassie was built as a quarry line and used a number of ex-Army Malcolm Moore locos to replace their steam locos. Tootle Engineering made a batch of these locos a few years ago in 16mm scale and they are large enough to fit the mechanical and electrical bits needed. The bodywork is simple and could be easily fabricated in polystyrene sheet. This photo shows one of the Ida Bay trains when it was still a working railway......

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23851662@N03/6845075230

The SR&WSC Malcolm Moore was used on the second Hume Weir project and there is a photo of it on the ATT website with a string of V-tippers in tow. It is powered by a Fordson tractor rather than the McCormick favoured by Days, but would still need a reasonably detailed tractor to be built.

I don't want to put you off, but the Malcolm Moore Army type loco might be a better proposition than a Days for a first project. Narrow Planet even have the builders plates on their list. I think I've got a drawing somewhere if you need it.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Day's Rail Tractor

Post by cooltrain » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:44 am

Hi Graeme,
I hadn't thought about doing a model of the SR&WSC Malcolm Moore. I'd considered buying a Tootle Engineering ex-army Malcolm Moore and gauge converting it but they aren't available anymore. I might reconsider doing a model of a Malcolm Moore locomotive.

I have access to Puffing Billy's Day's tractor as I'm a volunteer in the museum there. In fact I walked past it at least 10 times on Wednesday and It completely escaped my mind to take some photos or get measurements! Maybe next week!
Thanks,

Ronan.
"So what's yer name?" asked the driver.
"Charlie, sir."
"I don't address my firemen by their Christian names, son. Give me your surname."
"Darling, sir."
"Okay, Charlie, start shoveling."

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Re: Day's Rail Tractor

Post by GTB » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:21 pm

cooltrain wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:44 am I'd considered buying a Tootle Engineering ex-army Malcolm Moore and gauge converting it but they aren't available anymore. I might reconsider doing a model of a Malcolm Moore locomotive.
Worth looking into for a scratchbuild I think.

They are 2' gauge like the other survivors in Aust., but four were regauged to metre gauge by the Army at the end of WW2 for use on the Sabah State Railway in what is now Malaysia. So there is some info on the changes required to build one in 45mm gauge.....

There is a good article on the Malcolm Moore Army locos. in Light Railways Issue 186, which can be downloaded as a pdf from the LRRSA online shop. It includes a good drawing and also photos of the metre gauge Sabah locos. When regauged the frames are wider than the original bodywork, so they have a narrow running board down the sides covering the gap.

I've been looking for a project that I can build in polystyrene sheet to try out some ideas on powering small battery powered locos. These little machines have a lot more internal space than things like the Day's and TACL tractors which I'd prefer. Sigh............

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Day's Rail Tractor

Post by FWLR » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:29 am

ge_rik wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:27 pm
ge_rik wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:53 pm ......... Maybe I should describe a very basic conversion on my blog as well, just to show how simple it can be.
Just ordered myself a basic IP Engineering loco kit as the basis for a simple build/battery rc conversion. Will produce a blog entry for it as soon as it's done.

Rik
Interesting thread this, love to see peoples imagination grow into something…. :thumbright:

Hopefully Rik can show how easy it is to convert a basic kit. :thumbright:

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