Trams

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SpudUk
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Trams

Post by SpudUk » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:02 am

I've been considering dabbling in trams, powered by overhead electrics. Anyone else done this and suggest a good way in?

Thanks
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tom_tom_go
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Re: Trams

Post by tom_tom_go » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:25 pm

Have a search on the forum as posts using overhead cables have been put on here.

I like the idea as you could get all the benefits of running DCC without worrying about dirty track.

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Re: Trams

Post by markoteal » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:58 pm

Hi - whilst searching a model boat site the other day for stanchions (that I was wanting to use for nice scale fencing), I stumbled across they supply 1/24 trams in a nice selection and you can automate them -http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/aca ... l#aOC54008- might give you some inspiration - also someone post quite regularly on one often NG Facebook groups with a fully working overhead powered tramway - I'll have a look later
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Re: Trams

Post by SpudUk » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:03 pm

I've seen these Occre trams before, apparently they're an absolute pig to build! Not sure how to get overhead power in but might be a good place to start
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Re: Trams

Post by tom_tom_go » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:09 pm

If you are running 45mm have a look at LGB as they do trams.

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Re: Trams

Post by IrishPeter » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:00 pm

I do trams, but of the feral Irish steam driven variety that does not quite know whether it is a tram or a light railway. Undoubtedly, the nice thing about them is that they are an interesting thing to scratch build with their complex roof and body shapes. If I remember correctly Lisbon was 900mm gauge, and one of theirs ended up on the Manx Electric as a possible disabled car, but the project fell through and I think the car eventually went for scrap.

For overhead power, I have seen 12v DC put over a fairly large copper wire with return via the track, which imitates the sort of power transmission used on the real thing. Definitely more suitable for indoors than outdoors! One unorthodox approach which might make things both easier and more difficult is fitting RC to the trams rather than relying on 'clicking knob' control a la OO gauge. The other possibility is some sort of DCC, but by that point you are well out of my league when it comes to electrickery. I have been playing around with the idea of an electrified extension to the Skebawn and Castleknox to cope with the gradients out in the yard.

Probably a bunch of useless ideas, but tha nivver knaws!

Peter in VA
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Trams

Post by LNR » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:48 am

I've always wondered how you protect the catenary from cat/bird/animal entanglement/damage in the garden. I've always been tempted by trams, managed to resist so far.
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Melbournesparks
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Re: Trams

Post by Melbournesparks » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:02 pm

Apologies for digging up an oldish thread, I don't read this forum as often as I should.

I do this, works pretty well. Currently using traditional straight DC, 12v, fed via overhead wire with both rails used for return current.

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The fleet is a mix of LGB and Bachmann rollingstock, with various degrees of modification. There's a fairly even split between trolley poles and pantographs, so the overhead is configured for both.

The overhead is mostly 0.7mm copper, from old mains wiring with the insulation stripped off. It's supported on wooden poles, which are just stuck in the ground. It's actually more robust than you'd think, I haven't really had any wildlife damage over two years or so. Every site is different though, so your own experience may differ!

There's certainly some important compensations to be realized from operating with overhead outside. Because the wire is up out of the dirt, and copper, pickup is usually more reliable than from the rails. With both rails used for return current you can easily run over a leaf or something that would insulate half the wheels without trouble. With straight DC control, you can immobilize a piece of rollingstock anywhere just by lowering the pantograph or trolley pole, so no insulated sections or blocks are needed. Somewhat counter intuitively the trolley poles tolerate bad quality overhead better than pantographs. They can be dewired easily by sharp kinks, but tolerate loose untensioned wire and wider variations between the wire and the track center line than pantographs.

Here's a bit of video footage of the tramway as it was this time last year, shortly before work started on a major extension!

Image

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Re: Trams

Post by tom_tom_go » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:13 pm

Thanks for sharing, it works very well despite all the plants and foliage.

Some of your trackwork is interesting towards the end of the video, what is it made of please?

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Re: Trams

Post by Big Jim » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:26 pm

Wow.
I have seen outdoor trams in 2.5 inch gauge and while these were running on 20v AC there did not appear to be much of a problem with current collection. The sliding motion of the trolly pole (no runner wheel used, just a shoe with a groove in it) kept the overhead scraped clean.
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Re: Trams

Post by Big Jim » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:31 pm

Just seen a few more of your films.
Any chance of a write up for the forum on your thermoelectric team please.
If at first you don't succeed, use a bigger hammer!

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Re: Trams

Post by IrishPeter » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:15 pm

Do you have to solder jumper cables to your track in order to ensure return? Or does it just make its way back somehow? I have been contemplating a little electric extension to the Skebawn and Castleknox to serve a mining operation, so I was wondering how much of a problem rigging up a trolley wire would be.

Cheers,
Peter in Va.
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Melbournesparks
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Re: Trams

Post by Melbournesparks » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:07 am

tom_tom_go wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:13 pm Thanks for sharing, it works very well despite all the plants and foliage.

Some of your trackwork is interesting towards the end of the video, what is it made of please?
About half the track is made from flat 10x3mm aluminium bar. It's fitted into slotted wooden sleepers, similar to some larger miniature railways. It's a fairly common type of track construction in Australia/NZ, where proper large scale track is really expensive.

Image

Some points are made this way too (points are even more expensive!) but they're fairly time consuming to fabricate.
Big Jim wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:26 pm Wow.
I have seen outdoor trams in 2.5 inch gauge and while these were running on 20v AC there did not appear to be much of a problem with current collection. The sliding motion of the trolly pole (no runner wheel used, just a shoe with a groove in it) kept the overhead scraped clean.
Most of mine are like that too, though I found some metals work better than others. Steel seems to be better than brass, for some reason. The little English Electric locomotive has a brass trolley wheel as a bit of an experiment. It's much more reliable when running with the pole pointing forwards (like when you're shunting or something) but pickup isn't as good and it can be dewired more easily.
Big Jim wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:31 pm Just seen a few more of your films.
Any chance of a write up for the forum on your thermoelectric team please.
Sure thing!:)
IrishPeter wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:15 pm Do you have to solder jumper cables to your track in order to ensure return? Or does it just make its way back somehow? I have been contemplating a little electric extension to the Skebawn and Castleknox to serve a mining operation, so I was wondering how much of a problem rigging up a trolley wire would be.

Cheers,
Peter in Va.
Sometimes, though brass or aluminium rail is very low resistance. It's only really the joins that might cause problems. I think I've only fixed one though in two years of operation, by soldering a jumper wire across it. I don't have the ability to solder to aluminium here, so the earth wires are attached to the aluminium rail with a bolt and a star washer. Generally brass rail in brass rail joiners conducts fine, even outside. The trolley wire is all continuously soldered copper, so no resistance problems there.

When I was building mine I discovered construction speed depends a lot on how complicated your track is. Straight or gently curved track takes next to no time, hammer a pole in every 1200mm or so, solder the wire to it and you're done! Tight curves need more poles and fittings to keep the wire centred over the track, and complex junctions need overhead frogs to be positioned carefully so the trolley pole goes the right way. If you use pans or bow collectors you don't have to worry about that, so good to decide what sort of current collection device(s) you'll be using in advance.
Image

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Re: Trams

Post by Soar Valley Light » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:47 pm

I'm VERY impressed with that tandem turnout, it's an absolute work of art! It looks like it's almost fully guarded, any plans to sink it into a roadway? Congratulations on some very soundly build and practical trackwork.

All the best,

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Re: Trams

Post by tom_tom_go » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:30 am

Thanks for the info, impressive!

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