Merlin locos

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Post by Big Jim » Sat May 31, 2014 8:56 pm

Could anybody prehaps confirm Merlin Monarch's circa 1987 would these loco's have a Brass or Copper bolier, just got one myself which seems to be in great shape but would like to look after it, I have the original catalouge states sliver soldered and use butane but I also have a sheet which staes in colder conditions you can use propane mix
Tony
Could be either, I would lean towards a copper one as I don't think the Monarch used a Beck Boiler but I could be wrong. As for gas I use butane all the time and it seems to work for me.
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Post by Chris Bird » Sat May 31, 2014 11:17 pm

It is the Beck boilers that are certainly brass and very suspect. if they have been kept empty and only distilled water used they may be OK, but it is a risk. Mine (on an early, inside framed Midas type) was like a sieve - but then I did leave water in it for a dozen years....
I suspect that early Merlin built boilers may also have been brass, but my late 80's Mayflower and Major are both copper. The later Majors has reversible valve gear, but I have never seen this on a Mayflower or late, Mayflower type Monarch.
I use butane in the summer but mix when the temperature is below about 10 C.
Cheers
Chris

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Post by Tony » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:18 pm

Thank you for the info, I will aim to get some pictures of posted in the next few days,
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Post by funandtrains » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:22 pm

Chris Bird:101270 wrote:It is the Beck boilers that are certainly brass and very suspect. if they have been kept empty and only distilled water used they may be OK, but it is a risk. Mine (on an early, inside framed Midas type) was like a sieve - but then I did leave water in it for a dozen years....
I suspect that early Merlin built boilers may also have been brass, but my late 80's Mayflower and Major are both copper. The later Majors has reversible valve gear, but I have never seen this on a Mayflower or late, Mayflower type Monarch.
I use butane in the summer but mix when the temperature is below about 10 C.
Cheers
Chris
Chris, it seems to be a common misunderstanding by many in the 16mm live steam community that distilled water will not do any harm but in fact distilled water is very corrosive being an oxidiser, in a brass boiler only using pure distilled water is not much better than using acidic water and will corrode out the zinc in the brass. Brass boilers are actually intended to be used with slightly hard water as the calcium and magnesium in the water stop the water attacking the zinc. It is not an ideal situation but you want a small amount of lime scale in a brass boiler to make it last, so every few runs have a run with 1/10 tap water to distilled water and don't leave distilled or rain water in the boiler! It is a balancing act to keep a thin layer of protective scale without allowing it build up to much so that lumps can come lose and damage valves and pistons. Copper boilers are easier to look after as you don't have to think about them that much when run on distilled water, copper being attacked much more slowly.
Beck boilers were very well made but many were wrecked by being misused, not helped by them not being supplied with good running instructions in English!
Cheers, Steve

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Re: Brass or Copper Bolier and what gas can be used

Post by funandtrains » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:29 pm

Tony:101020 wrote:Could anybody prehaps confirm Merlin Monarch's circa 1987 would these loco's have a Brass or Copper bolier, just got one myself which seems to be in great shape but would like to look after it, I have the original catalouge states sliver soldered and use butane but I also have a sheet which staes in colder conditions you can use propane mix
Tony
The only Merlin locos that I have seen with brass boilers use German made Beck boilers fro either Anna or the larger Helene locos, these are easy to spot as they have the regulator and oiler in the front dome and Wilesco style glass level window in the cab boiler end. Some Merlin locos used these boilers un modified others had the domes, smoke box and chimney altered to look more British.
Cheers, Steve

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Post by Chris Bird » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:31 pm

That's interesting Steve - and I guess it applies to the Regner locos which I believe have brass boilers.
However, back in the 80's when I ran the old Merlin/Beck, I only used hard tap water and left it in there. When I cut the perforated boiler open in 2007, I found a nice layer of limescale all over.
These days I just use water from the condensing tumble drier (no fabric conditioner used) and the Merlin has a copper boiler that a friend helped me to make.
Cheers
Chris

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Post by funandtrains » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:49 pm

Chris Bird:101356 wrote:That's interesting Steve - and I guess it applies to the Regner locos which I believe have brass boilers.
However, back in the 80's when I ran the old Merlin/Beck, I only used hard tap water and left it in there. When I cut the perforated boiler open in 2007, I found a nice layer of limescale all over.
These days I just use water from the condensing tumble drier (no fabric conditioner used) and the Merlin has a copper boiler that a friend helped me to make.
Cheers
Chris
I was told that the Regner German instruction say not to use distilled water but a blend with tap water but as my own German is not good I can't say I've read it myself.
I use tumble dryer water too, I guess as Becks were made in bulk there were good and bad boilers as I know people who are still running 30+ year old Beck Annas without issues.
One thing I know to still clear of is commercial descaler as I fitted a chrome plated brass bottle trap to my bathroom basin 5 years ago and when I tried to unscrew it a few months ago it just crumbled in my hands as the zinc had been leached out by the limescale remover used to clean the basin once every few months.
Cheers, Steve

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Post by Bill/Rubery » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:29 pm

I shuddered when I read this topics title! In 1986 I purchased a Merlin Monarch new. I had a morgage and two young daughters. There was no internet with forums like this. I had lots of trouble with the engine and getting spares out of Merlin was awfull!! They never answered the phone or letters. I even contacted the Assistant Inspector at Welshpool delivery office to see if Merlin was still in existence? My union was going on strike and I had to cancel my Lady Anne on order.When I did order again I made the CRASS mistake of buying a Merlin....need I go on?
Regards, Bill/Rubery

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Post by Chris Cairns » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:19 am

Regner Lumber Jack English Instructions wrote:Use distilled water, to which 3-5% tap water has been added. This minimizes the aggressive characteristics of distilled water and allows residual water to be able to be left in the boiler without draining for storage or inactive periods without resulting in the dreaded pitting.

Water from condensation dryers or dehumidifiers is also well suited.
Chris Cairns

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Post by Big Jim » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:42 am

I shuddered when I read this topics title! In 1986 I purchased a Merlin Monarch new. I had a morgage and two young daughters. There was no internet with forums like this. I had lots of trouble with the engine and getting spares out of Merlin was awfull!! They never answered the phone or letters. I even contacted the Assistant Inspector at Welshpool delivery office to see if Merlin was still in existence? My union was going on strike and I had to cancel my Lady Anne on order.When I did order again I made the CRASS mistake of buying a Merlin....need I go on?
From what I have heard I don't think you were alone in your problems with Merlin around this time. We are very luck at the moment that most of the major producers and retailers of Garden Railway stuff are pretty reliable and offer a good service, I have heard some horror stories about several suppliers from years ago.
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Post by funandtrains » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:38 pm

From what I see there are still plenty of working Merlins around so most must have ran well, a pity that a few duds were sold to people. I actually seem to see more Merlins running these days from the 1980s than Roundhouse so either they have worn well or more are being restored. I have a Merlin Monarch which runs just as well as my Roundhouse Billy which less than half it's age.
Cheers, Steve

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Re: Merlin locos

Post by big-ted » Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:53 pm

I've recently acquired a late model (outside frames & loosely simulated valve gear) Monarch. The electrics are in need of a bit* of a tidy up, so I plan to remove the old 25MHz receiver & install modern stuff. One thing I can't figure out is where the batteries are supposed to go? Unlike the Mayflower, which had the servo in the cab on the right hand side and the batteries under the footplate, Monarch has the servo under the footplate. My loco had a very crude plastic box to house the batteries added to the rear of the cab that definitely isn't original.

I don't really want the batteries visible through the cab windows if I can help it, as they would be if I used the space freed up by removing the large receiver. So far my best option seems like 4 NiMh AAAs, taped together in a custom shape & squeezed in the cab on the right hand side between the boiler & cab. Trouble is, I'd have to permanently tape & solder up my own pack to have them in a diagonal configuration. A flat pack won't fit in front of the lubricator, & a square pack will be really tight between the cab & the boiler. I can make my own pack, but this then means I can't charge the cells individually.

The other option is a pair of 18650 cells. Am I nuts to consider putting lithium batteries in a live steam loco?

*This is a big under statement.

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Re: Merlin locos

Post by pandsrowe » Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:41 am

Any chance that you could mount them as a flat pack to the underside of the cab roof?
My Roundhouse Billy has this arrangement and works quite well in an otherwise very cramped cab.
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Re: Merlin locos

Post by GTB » Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:37 pm

big-ted wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:53 pm The other option is a pair of 18650 cells. Am I nuts to consider putting lithium batteries in a live steam loco?
I also wondered about fitting 4 x AAA in a flat pack under the cab roof, as it is common in Roundhouse steam locos. That's where they are in Lilla, which isn't particularly spacious in the cab dept. We usually look down on model locos when running them, so the battery pack is less obvious under the roof.

If you are prepared to make a new mounting bracket, modern servos are small enough that you could probably relocate the servo into the cab, put a square battery pack under the cab floor and fit the receiver up under the cab roof.

I don't have any experience with Li-ion cells in model locos, so can't help you assess the likely risk of using them in a live steam loco.

High operating temperatures will reduce the operating life of any rechargable cell, but NiMH cells are more resistant to high temperatures and with Li-ion cells there is also a risk of thermal runaway. From what I've read, LiFePO4 cells are recommended as an alternative to Li-ion cells in high operating temperatures.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Merlin locos

Post by big-ted » Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:12 pm

On this generation of Merlin loco, the Mayflower & Major included, the gas tank is in the roof between the cab windows, & the receivers of the time stuck to one side of it. I could definitely fit a square pack in the space freed up by relocating the receiver, (Deltang receivers are much smaller) but the batteries would be very visible through the cab windows. Relocating the servo is an option, but would require some drilling off the original chassis to mount it which I'd like to avoid.

I'm just stumped as to where the batteries would have been originally!

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Re: Merlin locos

Post by artfull dodger » Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:33 pm

On both my Mayflower and my late run Major, there was a four AA battery pack under the cab footplate between the frames rails and behind the rear driver axle. Receiver was mounted on one side of the butane tank. I no longer own the engines, so I have no pictures to share. A modern four AAA rechargeable battery should be able to hidden on the engine I would think. Might need recharge a bit more often than a AA battery back, but much easier to hide. My Riverdale coal fired Elke uses four AAA batteries for its RC receiver power.
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Re: Merlin locos

Post by big-ted » Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:35 am

I owe this thread an update. Everything is installed:
IMG_20220401_181633.jpg
IMG_20220401_181633.jpg (976.03 KiB) Viewed 3960 times

Deltang receiver on the left behind the power switch. Not yet fixed in as I still need to set servo trims. 4 AAA batteries soldered & taped together & placed on the right hand side in front of the lubricator. Servo for steam regulator/reverser on factory location under the footplate.

I'm not at all concerned about the battery capacity. The four AAAs in my Roundhouse loco (same receiver, two servos) last for ages.

Fingers crossed pics of loco outside in steam tomorrow, although the weather isn't looking great.

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Re: Merlin locos

Post by big-ted » Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:25 am

Well, the weather held off beautifully today so ladies & gentlemen, meet Myrddin:
IMG-20220402-WA0006.jpeg
IMG-20220402-WA0006.jpeg (1.3 MiB) Viewed 3913 times
The timing is way out on one side, & the set screw holding the return crank to the axle is stripped, so I'm going to have fun with that. Getting it out will be one thing but I suspect finding a replacement will be even more tricky. Anyone know the size of the set screw these locos used?!!

A small steam leak from one of the banjo bolts on the lubricator, & I think the gas filler valve needs cleaning, as it seems to take ages to fill the tank, but both of these should be easily sorted. It actually ran really well in spite of these issues!

Note the plates are made by me. The loco was missing it's builders plates, so I've no way of knowing the works number. By all accounts these numbers were a bit arbitrary anyway, so Myrddin's plates have been left blank.

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