Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:53 am

Thanks for your reply.

Comet is like Ajax. Ajax only appears to be available in the US in powder form and although you can get Comet in cream form, it still contains bleach. I have found a 3M creme cleanser but I have to have it shipped to me, so it works out quite expensive.


On the subject of heat and paint..... I assume that I don't paint the boiler itself? If not, does it need any form of corrosion protection? I assume I paint both sides of the boiler wrapper?

And the smoke box, do I paint the inside as well, or just the outside?

All I know about Scalecoat is that it is a solvent-based enamel. I've read that other people have used it so I hope it's ok. I'm still not sure if it will be ok on the smoke box or if I need to buy specific heat-resistant paint.


I'm thinking of trying the following for the brass parts:

1) Clean with a cream cleaner (with a toothbrush).
2) Rinse.
3) Vinegar bath.
4) Prime with the Rustoleum etch primer.
5) Top coat with Scalecoat 1.

I'll probably try some pieces first that are easy to replace in case it goes wrong (maybe the buffer beam overlays).

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by GTB » Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:39 pm

siclick33 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:53 am Thanks for your reply.

Comet is like Ajax. Ajax only appears to be available in the US in powder form and although you can get Comet in cream form, it still contains bleach. I have found a 3M creme cleanser but I have to have it shipped to me, so it works out quite expensive.


On the subject of heat and paint..... I assume that I don't paint the boiler itself? If not, does it need any form of corrosion protection? I assume I paint both sides of the boiler wrapper?

And the smoke box, do I paint the inside as well, or just the outside?

All I know about Scalecoat is that it is a solvent-based enamel. I've read that other people have used it so I hope it's ok. I'm still not sure if it will be ok on the smoke box or if I need to buy specific heat-resistant paint.


I'm thinking of trying the following for the brass parts:

1) Clean with a cream cleaner (with a toothbrush).
2) Rinse.
3) Vinegar bath.
4) Prime with the Rustoleum etch primer.
5) Top coat with Scalecoat 1.

I'll probably try some pieces first that are easy to replace in case it goes wrong (maybe the buffer beam overlays).
As an industrial chemist I'm very wary of using anything with bleach in it to clean metal, due to the chance of residual chloride initiating corrosion. I'd use Ajax powder (or any equivalent brand without bleach)...........

You are using an etch primer, so a vinegar wash won't make the primer work any better. Not all etch primers are created equal, so check that the one you are using is suitable for both brass and steel.

The boiler projects into the cab, so it is worth painting at least that part of it. Just remember to cover all the bushes to keep overspray from getting into the threads. I paint the upper part of my cab interiors cream and do the same to the backhead, any etch primer that works on brass should work on copper as well.

No point in painting the inside of the smokebox, it's a bronze casting and will be soaked in steam oil after the first run, so it won't corrode.

I paint the inside of the cleading as well as the outside. It's not strictly necessary, but it prevents any corrosion if water gets trapped in there while filling the boiler, or from condensate dribbling down from the safety valve.

Test pieces are always a good idea when painting with something you aren't sure about. A metal part can easily have the paint stripped off without damage to try something else, if the first attempt doesn't work out. It doesn't have to be a model part, but best to be the metal in question when testing for paint adhesion.

Graeme

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:25 pm

Thanks again, that is extremely helpful.


First problem has come, with the roof.

The instructions say that the roof 'hinges' are slotted to be able to adjust the roof and to 'tighten when correctly positioned'. I put it all together and there was no way that this was going to work. After a few adjustments I realised that the bottom of the hinges was hitting the flanges on the inside of the body, so I bent the hinges to allow the roof to drop some more. However, now the roof wouldn't open without the nuts that hold the canopy hinges on, hitting the front part of the body (where the windows are) when you open it. I ended up grinding away some of the metal from the front of the cab, and now it all works. There is no way that these retaining bolts can be 'tightened'' and I subsequently found another part of the instructions that mentions that they need to be loose :x If you don't go through all of this hassle then the roof sits quite high, as shown on a photo I found on the internet.

If I was to do this again, I would try to leave the end of the hinges flat, and grind away some of the flange from the inside so the roof can sit lower. I might grind these flanges away a bit anyway, so that I can replace the roof strap later.

The other concern I had was that the battery box looks odd, when installed, when viewing from the rear. I thought I had made a mistake but, looking at the Roundhouse factory photos, this is correct.

I'm sure there is room for improvement on the kit here; at the very least the instructions are a bit of a mess.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by Keith S » Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:21 pm

I certainly hope this doesn't sound rude, but I think you need to perhaps slow down a little and think things through a little more carefully before doing things you can't undo, such as grinding down the spectacle plate of your cab. There is no way this should have been necessary. I built this kit, as did many others present, and I found the instructions to be excellent: much better than any other kit I have ever built. Furthermore, I found every part fit perfectly. This is Roundhouse's well-deserved reputation.

The holes in the cab roof bracket/hinge are oval because the roof is meant to be lifted before hinging forward. This would have allowed the nuts on the bottom of the cab to clear the front. The second picture, of the red "Billy" shows the roof pulled up prior to being tilted forward. It should be possible to push it down so it sits correctly. It's not meant to hinge forward without being pulled up first.

Anyway: On the subject of paint: I second the recommendation you use enamel. There used to be some very good instructions on easy painting by Chris Bird on his "Summerland" website, but he seems to have deleted a lot of his older stuff.

The boiler jacket will get very hot while your engine is running, and this will "bake" the paint and give it a different sheen and colour to the parts that stay cool. Therefore it works really well if you spray the parts, and then immediately put them in a low oven. If you're in America, whatever the lowest temperature your oven goes to, like 180F. for 20 minutes or so. This drives off the solvent, and causes the paint to become hard and has the added benefit of being able to be handled as soon as it cools off.

I just used spray cans to paint mine, using enamel, before I knew this little trick, and I noticed the paint looked rubbery and excessively shiny when new. After I ran the locomotive, I noticed the boiler looked much harder and more realistic, while the cab retained its "rubbery" look. A trip through the oven made all the paint look the same, and much better. Additionally, when I painted the interior of the cab cream, I put it in the oven when the paint was wet, and 20 minutes later it was hardened and ready to put on the locomotive. It works great, as long as you use enamel paint. For the smokebox, I used the paint that is sold in hardware shops for the purpose of painting barbecues or wood stoves. It dries quickly to a nice flat finish that I think looks pretty good. The smokeboxes of real locomotives tend to painted with a similar high-temp paint.

Again, you did a great job soldering the cab. But I think you could benefit from slowing down, reading the instructions several times, dry-fit everything, and if it doesn't fit, ask for help or think some more before taking a grinder to it. When you get to the part where you have to assemble the valve-gear, it will be imperative that you understand exactly what you are doing before you do it.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:03 pm

Quote from the instructions:

'The hinge has slotted holes to allow for adjustment of the roof position. After tightening into position, file away any excess thread'.

Only 2 pages later (in the section about the tank support) does it say, 'the nuts on the inside should be left slightly loose to allow the hinge to operate'.

So it is tight, or is it loose? Nowhere does it say that the roof should be lifted to open; a hinge operating is just rotating, not lifting! Maybe we have different ideas on what constitute excellent instructions; these aren't too bad but they aren't fully comprehensive (there aren't many diagrams showing where things should go) and they jump about all over the place. In any case, I am mainly posting here to show others where the unclear areas are; this is certainly one of them.


I did work all that out through trial and error, but there was still no way that the nuts that hold the roof hinge strap would clear the front panel when opened. I couldn't even push the roof down as the ends of the hinge strap was getting stuck on the inside flanges of the cab front. I have an engineering background; none of this was caused by rushing!

EDITED TO ADD: I've re-read the instructions and it is clearer now, but I still think it could have been explained better. The initial 'tightening' refers to the hinge strap on the roof. The 'should be left slightly loose' refers to the hinge where it meets the cab body. That still wouldn't have helped in my situation though, due to the interaction with the flange that I mentioned earlier.

It looks ok but I think it might annoy me now, so I might de-solder it all and replace the cab front with a new one. If I put some extra washers in between the hinge and the cab then I might be able to push the hinge bracket far enough away from the sides that it clears the flange.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:33 am

I think I’ve discovered where I went wrong, from looking at photos on internet (and you can just about see the solution on the Roundhouse photo, from the back, posted above).

It looks like the hinges aren’t supposed to be flush with the inside of the cab walls; they need to ‘float’. This will keep the ends of the hinges inside the flange that I was having problems with. When they say that these bolts should be ‘slightly loose’ they actually mean very loose.

I’m not sure I like the idea of the roof being that wobbly, but I can probably secure it a bit more by placing some packing washers between the inside of the cab wall and the outside of the hinge slots. This will hold the roof in position but will still allow the hinge ends to clear the flange.

The slight material removal really isn’t very noticeable face-to-face, but I have emailed Roundhouse to see if I can get a replacement cabin front piece so that I can re-assemble it and try again.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by Lonsdaler » Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:20 pm

I've not built any of the Roundhouse kits, and I'm not sure if I would want to, but one feature I am not happy with on any of my steamers is the way the cab roof fits. I have changed mine to be held in place by magnets. This requires soldering a small piece of steel to the cab wall, and epoxying a rare earth magnet to the roof part. I have found one magnet is sufficient to hold the roof firmly in place. Maybe a solution to consider? Well done so far anyway - if you are unsure of anything in your build, this is certainly the place to get expert advice. :thumbup:
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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:02 pm

The build has stalled for the time being.

Surprisingly, considering my previous dealings with them, Roundhouse hasn't yet replied to my request to buy a replacement cab front.

And Minuteman might as well be on another planet so I still have no idea if/when my paint might arrive.

I did order some little hex head bolts (the ones in the photo are M2) which I plan to use instead of the Roundhouse cheesehead ones. And I couldn't get any cleanser without bleach locally, so I ended up ordering this 3m cleaner which has now arrived.

The next problem is the heat and humidity in Texas might be a bit high for spraying at the moment. If they drop, then I might try and get a primer coat on some of the parts as a paint test.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:51 am

This isn't my first time spraying, but I usually paint composites so metal is all new to me!


I started by making a small spray booth out of cardboard box (the one that the loco was delivered in :D ) with a drop sheet plastic insert.

The buffer beams were sanded with 500 grit wet and dry, then cleaned with the 3m cleanser and rinsed; these were then primed with the Rustoleum etch primer and baked at 180f for 30 mins.

I'm not sure if it makes any difference but I noticed that the Rustoleum primer doesn't mention acid etch, so I have ordered some U-POL #8 for the brass parts, but this should be fine for the chassis.

So far so good; now I just have to check that the Rustoleum primer is compatible with the Scalecoat 1 top coat (when it arrives).

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by Jimmyb » Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:41 am

Though the spraying looks good, a word of warning about using a small box as a spraying booth. As you spray inside the booth, the air inside has no easy escape, the the spray volume could then you circulate as opposed to coat the surface - difficult to explain, but the spry mist has a problem penetrating in to the booth. A larger box is the solution which front area is larger than the spray mist :)

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:22 pm

Thanks for the reply.

It might not be clear in the photo (and it might not entirely guard against what you are saying), but I have made little hangers that poke through the top of the box and the buffers weren’t at the back/bottom when they were being sprayed. I didn’t have any problem getting the paint onto them (in fact, they were being blown around by the force of the spray!

I will certainly bear this in mind when spraying the body though.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Sun May 08, 2022 3:29 pm

After a week's holiday in the UK, I am back at it.

One benefit of being in the UK is that I managed to get some parts that aren't available in the US. My favourite, are these steps from SwiftSixteen, which are so much better than the fold out part of the cabin floor that forms the steps on the kit.

I also bought some riveted couplers from SwiftSixteen to replace the kit buffers, although I'm not sure if I should have just stuck with the original ones; these will be an easy swap back if I change my mind later.

One disappointment was the running board set that I purchased. These were pretty poorly made so I had to send them back :cry: .

I'm still waiting for my paints from Minuteman. I'm getting close to cancelling that order and buying different paints from somewhere else.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Wed May 18, 2022 2:17 am

The new cab front has arrived, although the box looks a bit big. It almost looks big enough to have a Katie kit in it :shock:

I have removed the old cab front and soldered on the replacement. I'm a little disappointed as it's not as tidy as it was before, but it will do. Roundhouse confirmed that they have also experienced the 'problem' that I had with the hinge fouling on the inside of the cab front. Their solution was also to bend the end of the tabs, but the bit I missed was that this can only be a tiny amount or it will prevent the roof from lifting. I have another thought on how to make this neater and I will see how it works when I put it all together.

I have also started to use 'Brass Black' on the frame spacers. I have done 2 of them so far and they look ok, so I will do this with all of them. Paint might have been easier, but I wanted to make sure all of the drilled holes remained clear, and I wanted to see how the process works for other parts later on.

I had also purchased some decorative safety chains from SwiftSixteen. The instructions call for them to be soldered or glued in place. However. the stem of the casting looked quite close to being suitable for cutting a M3 thread, so I gave it a go and it seems to have worked. I will try to use these instead of the M3 bolts that came with the kit, to bolt the buffers and buffer beam overlays on.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by Old Man Aaron » Mon May 23, 2022 5:32 pm

Ingenious way of fitting those chain mounts. :salute:
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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Tue May 24, 2022 11:32 pm

I'm getting closer to starting to bolt things together (at last). The frames and cab floor are primed; I've been told that the Scalecoat paint is finally getting ready to be boxed and shipped so, hopefully, that will arrive soon.

I have used the Brass Black on the lubricator. I'm not sure how durable it will be, but it looks pretty good.

The black M3 hex bolts that I ordered have also arrived. The M3 slotted head bolts in the photo are the ones supplied by Roundhouse for the frames and the black hex head bolts are the ones that I will be using. The heads are a little large but they should be ok. The smaller, brass, hex head bolts are the ones supplied by Roundhouse as an optional extra and I believe that these may be the ones that they use on the buffer beams of the factory-built models.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by -steves- » Wed May 25, 2022 5:16 am

I have only just caught up with this thread.

I would just like to add that I built a Roundhouse Katie (essentially the same thing) about 5ish years ago and I had exactly the same issues with the roof lifting / hinging mechanism. I found it a proper PITA and just tinkered until I got it working the best I could. No idea if it was right or not, but eventually it opened and sat flat with "some fettling" :thumbup: I, like yourself, thought the instructions on this point were somewhat lacking and had room for improvement so clearly it wasn't just me :)
The buck stops here .......

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:17 pm

I'm still waiting on the paint and I might have to cancel my order with Mimuteman. I was told it was in line to be shipped a week ago but still nothing :x

In the mean time I've been priming the brass parts but nothing worth updating here yet. It has given me the chance to do some other, less urgent, bits including this compressor connection so that I can test the loco on air if I want to.

The fitting that screws to the loco and the pipe were bought from Roundhouse. The 1/8 BSP brass fitting was bought from ebay and drilled out to fit the tube, and an Iwata quick disconnect was added so that I can attach it to my compressor airline hose without having to unscrew anything.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:23 pm

Well the paint has finally arrived. The next problem is the temperature is forecast to be above 100f for the next 2 weeks, so there might be another delay :(

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:29 am

No posts for a while but progress is being made.

The paint has gone on ok, but not as good as I would like. The satin finish isn't quite uniform but it will do. I tried to brush paint the wheel hubs with Testors enamel but it was awful, so I removed the paint, masked and painted them instead; they now look a lot better.

The build has been ok, but I'm not sure I will do things in the same order when I put my next one together. For example, it's much easier to put the superheater T on before you bolt the cylinders to the frames.

The only issue that I came across was the weigh shaft wasn't straight and need to be bent back. This in itself was fine, and I'm not sure if the bending had anything to do with it, but when it was all assembled the weigh shaft fouled the expansion link pivot pins. This was solved by using a dremel cut-off disk to shorten the pivot pins.

I'm still not happy with the bending of the exhaust pipes but hopefully they will do for now.

I have tested it on air and it does run, but I'm not 100% sure about the valve timing. Once I've got the boiler on and it's running on it's own steam then I'll have another look at it.

I'm currently on another pause as the temp in Texas has been over 100F for the last couple of weeks, and is forecast to be the same for the rest of July, so it's a bit hot to be spraying. I might make a start on the George body tomorrow (which arrived today) whilst waiting for it to cool down a bit.

I've been mulling over what paint to use for the boiler. The Rust-Oleum High Heat paint (2000F) needs to be cured at quite a high temperature and I wasn't sure about that. The BBQ paint doesn't recommend a primer. In the end, I have ordered some Rust-Oleum engine primer and enamel, which is supposed to be good for 600F. That should be easier to cure and hopefully will be good enough; time will tell.

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Re: Newcomer Roundhouse Billy Build

Post by siclick33 » Sun Jul 17, 2022 6:50 pm

Body soldered, ready for final clean before priming :lol:

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