"Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by TonyW » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:03 pm

bambuko wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:09 amA small batch to this design was built by Swanage Models some years ago. Unfortunately the valve gear as designed does not work, it jams. The builders substituted an alternative arrangement, it may have been slip eccentric but they wanted reversing from the cab. They also kept to the designed cylinder size of 3/8" which can make slow running difficult. 1/2" or 9/16" cylinders make for a much more controllable loco...
Twenty were made by Swanage Models, all with slip-eccentric valve gear. I own one and it took some considerable time to get running to what I would call an acceptable standard. Nothing wrong with the valve gear, but poor chassis design and construction did their best to stop it working as it should. Fitting radio control to the regulator prevents it from running away and I have to say that now it runs very nicely.

The plan then, I believe, was for GS Models/Western Steam to make another batch fitted with Gab (IIRC) valve gear so they could be reversed from the cab. This project went on for many years with their web site continually stating that they would be ready "in September", but September in which year was never specified and, in the end, September never came. A prototype model was displayed at Peterborough a few years ago but that is, I believe, as far as they got. I tried to buy some enhanced parts for my own Lilla but my attempts to give them money all failed.

And then the Roundhouse one appeared...
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:20 pm

Thank you Tony!
That's very interesting. I would love to know more about ( - better to learn from other people's mistakes :D ):
...poor chassis design...
Pleased to hear, that she now :
...runs very nicely...
I presume that 3/8" dia cylinder (when compared with RH 9/16" ??) wasn't "the" problem?
They all run on 40psi boilers?

I know about Roundhouse one (what type of valve gear does it have?) but I get excited more about designing and building than buying, so that one is not for me :mrgreen:

p.s. how about side by side photo of Roundhouse and Swanage Models version :thumbup:

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by TonyW » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:18 pm

The chassis problems were more of poor construction than poor design, although the latter did come in to play. The axle boxes are sprung but on some locos the springs are so weak the boxes are always on their stops, while on others the springs are so stiff the loco bounces around as it runs. Add to this spring stops of different lengths (making the loco three-legged), non-parallel frames and a host of other issues conspiring to make the running poor.

Yes, 40psi boilers on both locos.

Swanage loco has 1/2-inch cylinders.

The Roundhouse version has their own design of valve gear.

Picture below ... Roundhouse at top, Swanage below.
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pm

Many thanks Tony :thumbright:

I always thought that LBSC's idea of brazing frames to buffer beams made for much more rigid and stable loco, so I guess Ross's design (particularly when "poorly constructed") was likely to be flimsy...

I guess you have improved matters by getting better axlebox springs? or did you dispense with springing altogether?
Spring stops of "different length" totally puzzle me - or was it another case of "poorly constructed"?
There is a mention of springing problems in this report:
Garden Railway Club - Lilla
although I must admit I do not understand the solution proposed there?

Did 3/8" cylinder in Ross's loco cause it to be more temperamental than Roundhouse version? (as reported by David Jones on Yahoo group).
Do you know dia of Roundhouse cylinder?
Google search didn't come up with an answer so far...

Thank you for the photo of the two suspects :D
Strangely Swanage one looks slightly bigger than Roundhouse version (or is it photographic distortion?).

Chris

ps apologies for this inquisition :mrgreen: but it is so good to find someone who is not only experienced but also has the two versions of the loco that interests me, that I cannot resist asking all these questions - hope you don't mind?

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by TonyW » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:51 pm

bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmI always thought that LBSC's idea of brazing frames to buffer beams made for much more rigid and stable loco, so I guess Ross's design (particularly when "poorly constructed") was likely to be flimsy...
Mine got new buffer beams on arrival as they were the main cause of the misaligned frames. Putting the fixings were they should have been squared-up the frames and stopped the running gear from binding.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmI guess you have improved matters by getting better axlebox springs? or did you dispense with springing altogether?
Mine still has its springs but with the stops all the same length it actually rides on the stops rather than the springs, which is fine. Better that than a later "bouncy" one with stronger springs, I feel.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmSpring stops of "different length" totally puzzle me - or was it another case of "poorly constructed"?
I'm afraid so. Basically they are a piece of stout wire soldered in to the top of each axle box so they should all be the same length.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmThere is a mention of springing problems in this report:
Garden Railway Club - Lilla
although I must admit I do not understand the solution proposed there?
Nor me, but I do know the person who owned that loco no longer does.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmDid 3/8" cylinder in Ross's loco cause it to be more temperamental than Roundhouse version? (as reported by David Jones on Yahoo group).
It did "scalded cat" very well, hence fitting of radio control. My experience of the Roundhouse version is that it is much more docile.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmDo you know dia of Roundhouse cylinder? Google search didn't come up with an answer so far...
No.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmThank you for the photo of the two suspects :D Strangely Swanage one looks slightly bigger than Roundhouse version (or is it photographic distortion?).
They were pretty much identical size-wise, although the chassis on the Roundhouse version is wider to accommodate use on 45mm track - no chance of that on the Swanage one.

The thing that puzzles me is where all of the Swanage ones are now...? I know of one other that is pretty much a Shelf Queen, and another is owned by a friend of mine (and runs nicely). I know several people who owned one but have sold them on. I know several people who had one on order but cancelled when their issues came to light.
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by dewintondave » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:03 am

Roundhouse cylinders are 9/16" dia by 5/8" stroke
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by TonyW » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:56 am

dewintondave wrote: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:03 amRoundhouse cylinders are 9/16" dia by 5/8" stroke
Ah, standard Roundhouse size then.

Correction: The Swanage version has 1/2-inch cylinders.
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:31 am

Hi Tony,
I remain confused by your descriptions of springing arrangement for Swanage Lilla.
Perhaps it is because Swanage design differs from Ross Harrison's design?
See below, how he originally intended it:

Image

As you can see there is no "...piece of stout wire soldered in to the top of each axle box..."
Instead the spring guide pin is secured to spring bracket, which in turn is fixed to the frame - there should be no issue with the length of this pin, as long as all the spring brackets are at the same height.

Or maybe it's just me? :)

Tony and Dave, I thought that Lilla cylinder wasn't the regular Roundhouse 9/16" cylinder (too big for Lilla, which is rather smaller than the usual Roundhouse locos).
Good to have confirmation that Swanage is 1/2" dia (which is bigger than Ross Harrison's 3/8") , but if this is the case, than why it's temperamental performance?
According to David Jones Swanage kept original Ross Harrison's 3/8" dia, so maybe the one that you have Tony, is already modified to improve it's temperament??

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by TonyW » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:15 am

You have to consider that I am attempting to describe a loco I last had in bits five years ago, and there have been many others on my bench since then. For that reason my memory of how it goes together, sizes, etc., may not be absolutely accurate.

The drawing rings some bells though and yes, that is how the spring stops are done: angles bolted to the frames. It is the 14mm long rod on the spring bracket that was causing the problem, as they were not all the same length. With weak springs that 14mm rod IS the suspension and remains in almost constant contact with the top of the axle box. If they differ in length then the loco does not sit squarely on a flat surface.

As for temperamental performance, it was controllable on a perfectly flat railway but the combination of biggish wheels and small cylinders made it a bit more fraught than I would have liked.
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:30 am

OK, I am beginning to understand... :thumbright:
The original design intent was for the 14mm pin to be short of the top of axlebox openning in the frame, so that if an axlebox went all the way to the top of it's travel on the weak spring, it would bottom on on the frame, not on the pin.
Makes sense - the pin is there to guide the spring, not to be used as axlebox travel stop.
This sounds like another bit of shoddy workmanship by Swanage :cry:

Thank you for your patience :thumbup:
I think the only way I am going to get this sorted is by building this little thing :mrgreen:

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by workwright » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:24 pm

Hi, I was interested to see the article about the Hunslets I built years ago. I had forgotten all about sending anything to Garden Rail. Nearly 30 years on I am still building Hunslets, but not normally with full inside valve gear. About 3 years ago I discovered some castings I had kept and combined these with a new set of laser cut parts to build a cabless Hunslet Alice class for myself. The batches that I build use laser cut frames/rods/ buffer beams/ etc. A problem of doing this commercially is when your sub-contractor goes into liquidation. So for a third time the receiver did not return my laser cutting files to me. THis time although I had the files I could no longer open them! So the " myself project" had to wait until I had redrawn them all from stratch. What a waste of time!
hun6.jpg
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The photo shows the loco in a early period with the sandpots disconnected. The models I make are to 16mm scale with as few compromises as possible. They look delicate but they are not. I aspire to a model that holds up beside a photo of the real thing.
hun1.jpg
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This model has several improvemets on the earlier version. Most importantly is the gas tank. It is three times the volume of the original giving a duration of over 30 minutes. Also no chassis space has been lost with an enots valve. The water fill valve is now on the footplate in front of the reverser. If you look at the photos below you will see this and the way I save space with the eccentric pairs. Forward of the motion plate each valve rod carries a block though which the valve rod on a different centre passes.
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All that remains to do is detail the backhead. Easy to do after being lucky enough to get to Statfold Barn. Then wash it, take it apart, ultrasonic clean everything, prime and paint it. So it should be finished in a year or two. Again a problem of making these things commercially is finding time for oneself!
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by Busted Bricks » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:07 pm

workwright wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:24 pm.... A problem of doing this commercially is when your sub-contractor goes into liquidation. So for a third time the receiver did not return my laser cutting files to me. THis time although I had the files I could no longer open them!
I don't follow. Did the company doing the laser cutting also create the CAD files they worked from? You just sent them sketches? What format are the files in since you cannot open them? Just curious as I work with laser cutting (wood, plastic, steel and metals).

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by workwright » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:46 pm

Busted Bricks , I have tried to send you a private message on the loss of tools. I do not think this topic should be wasted with a long explanation of my problems. Simply I never learn. Computers do blow up, discs get lost, Hard drives break. Formats change, directories get corrupted......The best security is a hard copy.
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:11 am

workwright wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:24 pm...Hi, I was interested to see the article about the Hunslets I built years ago. ...
Thank you very much for your detailed reply Malcolm!!
In particular, I appreciate the photos :thumbleft:

When I started this thread I didn't expect, how interesting it would be :)
Question - are your axleboxes sprung? or solid?
and another one - your valve gear is launch rather than loco - is it as per prototype? or because there is not enough room for loco?
Do I recollect correctly, that one of your designs has been serialised in E in M?

later edit (in the morning):

Indeed - it was Kerr Stuart Wren model, starting in Jan1997 issue of E in M (Engineering in Miniature)
Looks beautiful project! and the series of articles should be compulsory reading for anybody hoping to build steam in 16mm scale :thumbright:
Reading this creates another question - cylinder dia in Wren is 3/8".
Not surprising, bearing in mind "...models I make are to 16mm scale with as few compromises as possible..."
but people familiar with Ross's Lilla (or at least Swanage Models version of it) commented on how much more docile were the versions with cylinder enlarged to 1/2" dia
What is your opinion, please, on this issue?

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by workwright » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:39 am

Hi, over 30 years I have built about 400 locos. The only commercial models (40 off) that were sprung were Balwin 4-6-0 tank locos which were available as WD, Ashover, GVT, Snailbeach, all photo correct for the prototype chosen. Not a good project from the commercial side but with the prototypic chassis including the side controlled equalised bogie they were able to negotiate 3' 6" radii.The bogie did pull the chassis into the curve. It sort of answers your question - commercial models need to be simple, reliable, and well made. Most importantly parts need to interchangeable and construction must be adapted to economical batch production. Hence my workshop is tooled in a different way to the private modeller. eg I have at least 5 tailstock turrets tooled up for particular jobs, all the lathes have lever operated collets and apart from models for myself there is no cutting out. Everything is etched or laser cut.
So no springing on 0-4-0 locos- too fiddly, does it help the customer? We I think can see from some comments, probably not.
Of the products, Hunslet, Tattoo, Wren have 3/8" ID cylinders. Fitted with silicon rubber rings in a 94thou by 61 thou deep groove in a piston that has 2 thou clearance. The gland is packed with PTFE. (if the technical data sheet for the ring is not followed to the letter it will not act in the way it should and service life will be short). The safety valve is set for 65 psi. However the locos run well from about 25psi, the pressure usually settles to about 35-40 on a Summer's day with the loco hauling a good train. (Safety valves blowing off all the time is not prototypic- the clue in in the name!
I try to build a loco that will proceed slowly without stalling and not run away. Now in my 70th year I have made sure my track is not ground level and have started to fit either blast pipe restrictors or radio contol to the regulator. Chuffers, an excellent product that I fully endorse offer some blast pipe restriction and also keep ones precious model clean. I think that problems of poor running are not due to cylinder bore. Have you ever seen the work of Dave Shotter? His 16mm scale 3 1/2 ton Decauville type 1 tank was minute and beautiful in all respects - probably one one the finest models of a loco ever built, It ran for 30 minutes pulling 20 loaded skips at walking pace. He was a toolmaker for Kenwood( the food mixer Co),The loco was fully sprung with leaf springs and the axleboxes were ball raced, not watch making, just a model of a prototype made in minature to the drawings.
When I built the prototype Balwin 4-6-0 I built it to the drawings including the valve gear. I am too lazy to work through how to design valve gear, certainly modelling performance on a computer program is beyond me. My approach that many will frown at is to make it to scale and find out was happens. In the case of the Baldwin I nearly lost the tops of my fingers when the thing unexpectedly ran on its first air test. I was holding the chassis in my hand. Conclusion - it was probably pure luck I came out with near success(It ran forward and back well but was reluctant to notch up much. Valve covers off, new eccentric crank giving about 20 thou more movement of the valve and it worked really well) more importantly never have your finger tips near rods on a bar framed locomotive!
If you get pleasure from making things get to the bench and make. How you tackle your prototype is your decision. The best way do discover what gives your model success is does it achieve what was in your mind's eye when the project started? If it does, fine . If it does not, remove the offending part and make it better and you will step by step achieve your goal. Take my comments above not as how you should do something but as how I do it. Remember that it is only rarely I have the time to make something for myself so to some extent my comments on methods etc are from a person who makes with a clock ticking. The only general principals that are useful are 1) A Chassis must be square 2) Quartering must be precise 3) No enlarging coupling rod holes to achieve free movement(see 2) 4) pinning + locktight is safer than locktight on its own (don't ask!)
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by TonyW » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:53 am

workwright wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:39 am... Have you ever seen the work of Dave Shotter? His 16mm scale 3 1/2 ton Decauville type 1 tank was minute and beautiful in all respects - probably one one the finest models of a loco ever built, It ran for 30 minutes pulling 20 loaded skips at walking pace.
A true jewel of a model... (Photo by Kes Jones)
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:08 pm

workwright wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:39 am Hi, over 30 years I have built about 400 locos.
and that's why your advice is so valuable!
Thank you :thumbright:
... The only commercial models (40 off) that were sprung were Balwin 4-6-0 tank locos... Not a good project from the commercial side ... It sort of answers your question ..
It sort of does, but I must admit that I am more interested in your private view, rather than (perfectly understandable) commercial constraints
i.e. if you were building one for yourself, would you bother and if yes, how would you go about it?
There is plenty of examples for standard gauge practice in any gauges (from O, through 1 all the way to 5", 7" etc).
When it comes to narrow gauge in small scales, they all seem to follow commercial practice of KISS.
The only example I've seen with springing was Ross Harrison's design and even this one has been bouncy and not very good (I am told ...).
Whether it was because of bad design or bad manufacturing - I don't know, although I am sure the latter played it's part.
...So no springing on 0-4-0 locos- too fiddly...
As you say, it's common practice in 16mm scale and I guess the only way I am going to answer it for myself is by building two examples one with and one without springing, or perhaps build three, with the third one having just equalisation, without springing
(something on the lines of what Kozo Hiraoka proposed for his Penn A3 switcher)to give three point suspension.
...Of the products, Hunslet, Tattoo, Wren have 3/8" ID cylinders... I think that problems of poor running are not due to cylinder bore...
So this confirms to me, that given careful manufacturing, there is no reason to go for this bucket size cylinders as an answer to indifferent handling.
Other factor, I guess, is that all these locos which "needed" 1/2" dia cylinders had boilers at 40 PSI, whereas yours are 60 PSI.
... Have you ever seen the work of Dave Shotter? His 16mm scale 3 1/2 ton Decauville type 1 tank was minute and beautiful in all respects - probably one one the finest models of a loco ever built...not watch making, just a model of a prototype made in minature to the drawings....
No, this is the first time I hear about the gentleman (sadly no longer with us I understand...)
The photo in TonyW reply (thank you Tony!) to your post gives some idea about the kind of quality we are talking about, and it shows what is really possible.
...If you get pleasure from making things get to the bench and make...
My 0-6-2 Fowler design is making slow progress, although I got slightly delayed dithering about axle springing arrangements in this one as well
(hence some of the questions here, not just about 0-4-0 Hunslet)
...Remember that it is only rarely I have the time to make something for myself ...
and that's why I appreciate even more, your time taken to reply to my questions - thank you!
1) A Chassis must be square
2) Quartering must be precise
3) No enlarging coupling rod holes to achieve free movement(see 2)
4) pinning + loctite is safer than loctite on its own
Amen to that as well!
My frames are brazed to buffer beams, making it very solid design, with final sizing in a milling machine (including axle slots, hornblocks etc) afterwards for accuracy and precision.
Wouldn't make sense as a commercial proposition,
but luckily for me I have no "clock ticking"
(apart from the limit imposed by grim reaper waiting for us all... :mrgreen: )

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by workwright » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:18 pm

Hi, thank you for your generous reply to my post. You are building for yourself, from your techniques used you are more than up to the challenge of springing. On those grounds alone I suggest you do at least use three point suspension, if not coil springing. If you do use coil springs to get the greatest chance of success place the springs partially into the axlebox. I would also suggest the use of ball races in the boxes. The springs will need experimentation. They are going to be a little over 6-8mm long and have an OD of round about 4mm. ( Make from piano wire and wind under tension round a 3mm former) They will seem stiff and probably push the box down on the hornstay. But do not panic until the loco is finished and there is water in the boiler. You won't be able to really be sure you have things right, rIght is a loco with the boxes about 1mm above the hornstay and when you push it over say a 1mm bump in the trank that box goes up without displacing the loco. You will now realise why springing is for the builder a bit tedious. The same result is much faster to achieve with an equalising beam. Either approach though is worth the effort. The model is no longer a toy, it will, given its mass glide through points and if the wheels are coned (2') not shuffle through curves. I have attached a photo of one of MY locos. THis is fully coil sprung, the bogie equalised and with prototypical sprung side control. The 4 wheel tender is equalised. It took about a year to make when I just made locos for friends and self. The one, a Beira Raiway Falcon 4-4-0 has all the non commercial gismos. A working crosshead water pump with bypass. Mechanical lubricator and silent gas fired grate with a locomotive boiler - superheaterer- DIsc regulator. The boiler also converts to solid fuel! No clock ticking on this one.
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by IanC » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:01 pm

Wow. Way beyond my skill and resources, but please allow me to drool over that beautiful workmanship.
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by Hydrostatic Dazza » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:02 pm

Snipped for clarity
workwright wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:18 pm The one, a Beira Raiway Falcon 4-4-0 has all the non commercial gismos. A working crosshead water pump with bypass. Mechanical lubricator and silent gas fired grate with a locomotive boiler - superheaterer- DIsc regulator. The boiler also converts to solid fuel! No clock ticking on this one.beira side.jpg
Marvelous.
Please share more more pics of this loco and or point me in the direction where I can admire.
Cheers from Dazza, The Hydrostatic Lubricator 8)
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