"Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

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"Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:15 pm

I am looking through old issues of Garden Rail and there is an interesting design for 16mm Hunslet quarry engine (named "Lilla" in the magazine series starting with issue 10 Sept 1994).
I was wondering whether anybody has ever build one and can comment on it?

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by dewintondave » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:06 am

I think I have a .pdf of it. If I remember correctly Ross died before the write-up was completed
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:42 am

He has also designed 3 1/2"gauge and 7 1/4"gauge versions of Lilly.

I like his design for 32mm gauge, because:

1. it seems designed by model engineer for model engineers, rather than commercial product designed to cut costs

2. it has ingenious "single eccentric link, reversing gear, forward and bacward postions respectively".
According to Ross this gear was described in 1930's edition of Model Engineering by Henry Greenly, but I have this book and didn't find it there :scratch:
However there is reasonable description of it in Henry Greenly's 1904 book "The Model Locomotive, Its Design and Construction".
More detailed description of this "Gab" reversing gear in 1954 edition of "Model Steam Locomotive" by HG.
I am guessing, that although obsolete in bigger sizes, this gear should be pefectly adequate for 16mm loco?
but... it would be interesting to hear from anybody who might have used it.

3. and finally, Lilla was "enlarged version of standard "Quarry" type Hunslet, making it appealing as a model.

Ross didn't die before completing Lilly, because he has continued with another design (Edward Thomas Kerr Stuart) starting with issue 29 1996.
His death was anounced in issue 32 Mar/April 1997

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by GTB » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:28 pm

bambuko wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:42 am More detailed description of this "Gab" reversing gear in 1954 edition of "Model Steam Locomotive" by HG.
I am guessing, that although obsolete in bigger sizes, this gear should be pefectly adequate for 16mm loco?
but... it would be interesting to hear from anybody who might have used it.
No direct experience of the Ross Harrison designs. I've got a vague idea I've read about valve gear problems with one of them, but can't find it now........ :roll:

The valve gear described by Greenly seems a bit complicated for what it does and he states the valve events aren't very good. I guess it would work, but would likely run better in forward than reverse, or vice-versa. The original gab gear had separate forks and eccentrics for forward and reverse, so I guess this one is a simplified 'gab' gear.

I use 45mm gauge, so I've got the space to fit full Stephenson gear which would be my first choice. I've used it on two locos and the next build will have it as well. I use a Gordon Watson design which is easy to make and set up.

I know Stephenson gear would be hard to fit in a 32mm gauge inside frame model, but there should be space in an outside frame one like a quarry Hunslet. I'd be inclined to fit simplified 'Walschaerts' if space was too tight, as it's functionally the same as the 'gab' gear, but the valve events should be better.

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:20 pm

GTB wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:28 pm ...No direct experience of the Ross Harrison designs. I've got a vague idea I've read about valve gear problems...
I suspected that there may be some problems, hence my questions here...
The valve gear described by Greenly seems a bit complicated for what it does...
Here the layout of the gear for 16mm Lilla, by Ross Harrison/Henry Greenly:
Image

I guess the number of components is similar to full Stephenson gear. What makes it easier (in smaller models) is the single eccentric?
...I use a Gordon Watson design which is easy to make and set up...
Can you please let me know more details - I'd like to have a look at this?
...I know Stephenson gear would be hard to fit in a 32mm gauge inside frame model, but there should be space in an outside frame one like a quarry Hunslet...
I will try (I am modelling the whole thing in CAD at the moment), when not in the workshop working on my Fowler :)

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by GTB » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:16 am

bambuko wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:20 pm Here the layout of the gear for 16mm Lilla, by Ross Harrison/Henry Greenly:
Hmmm, interesting. Like you, I also suspect it has problems, having seen the drawing. It looks like the width of the slot in the reversing link is too narrow at the midway point and the whole shebang will lock up as the 'die block' moves towards mid gear. The description in the 1904 Greenly book mentions why the odd shape of the slot is necessary, but doesn't give much guidance on how to lay it out.

HG describes making up a cardboard model to work out how it operates, but I guess CAD could be used to achieve the same thing. It's a long time since I used Charles Dockstader's vg simulator, but I don't remember this one being in there.......

bambuko wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:20 pm I guess the number of components is similar to full Stephenson gear. What makes it easier (in smaller models) is the single eccentric?
Once you have set up to make an eccentric, there's not a lot of difference between making two or four. There's less work in them than making a wheel. The only difficult bit is getting the throw the same on all of them. Using the conventional method of marking out with scribe lines, centre pops and jobbing drills, I struggled to make two eccentrics the same. After Gordon Watson suggested using a spotting drill to start the hole, I now drill them on the mill and have had no problems since then. The unusual shape of the reversing link would be a lot harder to make than the expansion link of normal Stephenson gear.

The following pic is the Stephenson valve gear that Gordon fitted to the 45mm gauge Philadelphia models that he built about 20 years ago. To give you some sense of scale, the coupled wheelbase is 53mm, the driver dia. is 33mm and the cylinders are 7/16" dia.

The 32mm gauge mm models came with slip eccentric gear, due to the restricted space between the inside frames. My loco was one of the machinist kits he sold and had a hard life before I found and restored it, so I was very familiar with the valve gear by the time I finished. There are a few general pics of the restoration in this old thread, but none show the valve gear.

https://gardenrails.org/viewtopic.php?f ... win#p58209

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These models are smaller than a Roundhouse Lilla and being typical Baldwins, the valve gear is inside, with the valves and cylinders outside. Gordon supplied bronze castings for the eccentric straps and rods, but I've fabricated them on subsequent models, using gunmetal straps and brass rods/clevises. The eccentrics are fixed to the axles with grub screws so they can be adjusted and there is a hole drilled through the eccentric strap to access the grub screw once everything is assembled.

The rockers needed to transfer the valve drive through the frames is what takes up a lot of space which wouldn't be needed if the valves were also inside the frames. Also 45mm gauge inside frames are closer together than 32mm outside frames, which is why I think it can be fitted to a 32mm gauge Quarry Hunslet.

Clearances are fairly tight, but no worse than the area around the crosshead and slidebars on an outside Walschaerts loco. in this scale. The valve gear does run OK. It can be linked up and will use less steam when that is done.

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:17 am

GTB wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:16 am Hmmm, interesting. Like you, I also suspect it has problems, having seen the drawing...
basically you have full forward and full backward with nothing in between, but this is not really much different to most of the "simplified" valve gears used in 16mm locos?
...It looks like the width of the slot in the reversing link is too narrow at the midway point and the whole shebang will lock up as the 'die block' moves towards mid gear...
The width of the slot in the middle should be such that in mid gear "...the reciprocating motion of the valve rod ceases..."
Easily done with CAD.
...The description in the 1904 Greenly book mentions why the odd shape of the slot is necessary, but doesn't give much guidance on how to lay it out...
there are more details in 1954 version of the book (the one revised by his son in law E.A. Steel)
...The following pic is the Stephenson valve gear that Gordon fitted to the 45mm gauge Philadelphia models that he built about 20 years ago. To give you some sense of scale, the coupled wheelbase is 53mm, the driver dia. is 33mm and the cylinders are 7/16" dia....
That's most useful! - thank you!
Lilla wheelbase is 72mm and driver dia is about 34mm, so your pic is directly comparable. Your loco might be 45 mm gauge, but if you take away inside frames (and replace them with outside frames) it could easily be 32mm gauge?
...The 32mm gauge mm models came with slip eccentric gear, due to the restricted space between the inside frames. My loco was one of the machinist kits he sold and had a hard life before I found and restored it, so I was very familiar with the valve gear by the time I finished. There are a few general pics of the restoration in this old thread, but none show the valve gear.

[url]...Also 45mm gauge inside frames are closer together than 32mm outside frames, which is why I think it can be fitted to a 32mm gauge Quarry Hunslet...
I think I agree with you :thumbright:
but musn't get distracted... :mrgreen: and start yet another project without finishing the one in the workshop at the moment ;)


BTW who is Gordon Watson? :D
later edit...
found the answer by searching interweb :thumbup:
...Argyle Locomotive Works was established by Gordon Watson in the early ’90s as a bespoke and batch builder of miniature steam locomotives in gauges ‘O’ and ‘1’ for garden railways...

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:45 pm

Well... it might be doable indeed :)
Modelled first approximation and the layout looks like this:

Image

It's all based on gauge 1 existing designs, the only thing that had to be different was rather short eccentric rods.
I also brought valve chests further inwards towards centreline to avoid kinks in the valve rods.
It's all in straight line but there may be some difficulties with valve chest cover? and setting of the valves?

More details and close up:

Image

Of course the model is not finished and requires more details, but next I will put it through the simulator to see if valve events are acceptable....

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by GTB » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:33 am

bambuko wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:45 pm Well... it might be doable indeed :)
I thought it would be, but have had no reason to test it. There's nothing on my bucket list that runs on 32mm gauge.... 8)

The real quarry Hunslets don't have very long eccentric rods either, as the inside motion bracket doesn't leave much space.

https://www.quarryhunslet.mste.co.uk/pu ... rothea.php

For comparison, the eccentric rods in that photo of my Philadelphia are only 28.5mm between centres and that valve gear works fine.

LBSC used to set the valve timing in inside valve chests by using compressed air. You'll find the description in his writings, the one I've read was in the Model Engineer 10 April 1958....

Dave Watkins has a similar valve chest design on his Wild Rose 111 design. From memory he removes one cylinder to set the valve on the other side. LBSC. also described using that method.

The other alternative I've looked at is one Roundhouse use with their inside valve gear, which has a single valve chest with the valve face horizontal and the cover plate fitted from the top.

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:05 pm

GTB wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:33 am...The real quarry Hunslets don't have very long eccentric rods either, as the inside motion bracket doesn't leave much space...
Thank you for the link to these photos :thumbleft:
That confirms that what I am doing is reasonably "prototypical"
...For comparison, the eccentric rods in that photo of my Philadelphia are only 28.5mm between centres and that valve gear works fine...
Good to know.
I've run "my" gear on Charlie Dockstader's simulator and it does look reasonably OK.
Most of the guys swear by Hall simulator, but I just can't get on with it.
Dockstader needs a lot of inputs, but this is no bother if the model is in CAD.
...LBSC used to set the valve timing in inside valve chests by using compressed air...in the Model Engineer 10 April 1958....
thank you - he also makes a very good point in this article about long passageways and their effect on efficiency in this type of "outside cylinder inside valve gear" design.

Chris

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:27 pm

An interesting letter on the subject of full working Stephenson gear in 32mm gauge Hunslet, by Malcolm Wright of Wrightscale
in Sept 1994 issue of Garden Rail:

Image

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by GTB » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:09 am

bambuko wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:27 pm An interesting letter on the subject of full working Stephenson gear in 32mm gauge Hunslet, by Malcolm Wright.
That's more like watchmaking than modelling.......

These little models don't have a lot of space to fit a gas tank and the boilers are small, which tends to limit their running time, as noted by Malcolm.

I was lucky enough to see one of David Hick's Cranmore Peckett models a couple of years ago. That was an eye opener as well.

No quarry Hunslet ran in Oz, so I can ignore them as a modelling proposition. A Cranmore class Peckett is definitely a temptation though, as the one from the West Melbourne Gasworks is preserved in running order by the ETRB at Belgrave.

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by 11thHour » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:25 am

Not really comparable I know, but this 45mm gauge by Julius de Waal shows how much more room is available in slip eccentric.

http://modelengineeringwebsite.com/Huns ... ister.html

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:17 am

GTB wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:09 am ...That's more like watchmaking than modelling.......
yeah :)
It was just a feasibility study and I am beginning to think 7/8" version on 45mm track might be more interesting proposition.
This would btw make it comparable to LBSC's Tich but on narrow gauge instead standard gauge :thumbright:
..These little models don't have a lot of space to fit a gas tank and the boilers are small, which tends to limit their running time, as noted by Malcolm...
It is always good to "bounce off your ideas" on the forum to get input from more experienced people.
With a bit of luck it prevents one from going down the blind alley :mrgreen:

I think this thread has served it's purpose...
If I decide on bigger loco I will start separate thread.

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:09 am

bit of an addendum...
info that came up on Yahoo group:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Ste ... ages/34514

and for those who are not members:
...The Ross Harrison Lilla builds into quite a good representation of the prototype. A small batch to this design was built by Swanage Models some years ago. Unfortunately the valve gear as designed does not work, it jams. The builders substituted an alternative arrangement, it may have been slip eccentric but they wanted reversing from the cab. They also kept to the designed cylinder size of 3/8" which can make slow running difficult. 1/2" or 9/16" cylinders make for a much more controllable loco...

Best wishes, David Jones
Sounds like my concerns about the original valve gear were well founded :(

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by TonyW » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:03 pm

bambuko wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:09 amA small batch to this design was built by Swanage Models some years ago. Unfortunately the valve gear as designed does not work, it jams. The builders substituted an alternative arrangement, it may have been slip eccentric but they wanted reversing from the cab. They also kept to the designed cylinder size of 3/8" which can make slow running difficult. 1/2" or 9/16" cylinders make for a much more controllable loco...
Twenty were made by Swanage Models, all with slip-eccentric valve gear. I own one and it took some considerable time to get running to what I would call an acceptable standard. Nothing wrong with the valve gear, but poor chassis design and construction did their best to stop it working as it should. Fitting radio control to the regulator prevents it from running away and I have to say that now it runs very nicely.

The plan then, I believe, was for GS Models/Western Steam to make another batch fitted with Gab (IIRC) valve gear so they could be reversed from the cab. This project went on for many years with their web site continually stating that they would be ready "in September", but September in which year was never specified and, in the end, September never came. A prototype model was displayed at Peterborough a few years ago but that is, I believe, as far as they got. I tried to buy some enhanced parts for my own Lilla but my attempts to give them money all failed.

And then the Roundhouse one appeared...
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:20 pm

Thank you Tony!
That's very interesting. I would love to know more about ( - better to learn from other people's mistakes :D ):
...poor chassis design...
Pleased to hear, that she now :
...runs very nicely...
I presume that 3/8" dia cylinder (when compared with RH 9/16" ??) wasn't "the" problem?
They all run on 40psi boilers?

I know about Roundhouse one (what type of valve gear does it have?) but I get excited more about designing and building than buying, so that one is not for me :mrgreen:

p.s. how about side by side photo of Roundhouse and Swanage Models version :thumbup:

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by TonyW » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:18 pm

The chassis problems were more of poor construction than poor design, although the latter did come in to play. The axle boxes are sprung but on some locos the springs are so weak the boxes are always on their stops, while on others the springs are so stiff the loco bounces around as it runs. Add to this spring stops of different lengths (making the loco three-legged), non-parallel frames and a host of other issues conspiring to make the running poor.

Yes, 40psi boilers on both locos.

Swanage loco has 1/2-inch cylinders.

The Roundhouse version has their own design of valve gear.

Picture below ... Roundhouse at top, Swanage below.
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pm

Many thanks Tony :thumbright:

I always thought that LBSC's idea of brazing frames to buffer beams made for much more rigid and stable loco, so I guess Ross's design (particularly when "poorly constructed") was likely to be flimsy...

I guess you have improved matters by getting better axlebox springs? or did you dispense with springing altogether?
Spring stops of "different length" totally puzzle me - or was it another case of "poorly constructed"?
There is a mention of springing problems in this report:
Garden Railway Club - Lilla
although I must admit I do not understand the solution proposed there?

Did 3/8" cylinder in Ross's loco cause it to be more temperamental than Roundhouse version? (as reported by David Jones on Yahoo group).
Do you know dia of Roundhouse cylinder?
Google search didn't come up with an answer so far...

Thank you for the photo of the two suspects :D
Strangely Swanage one looks slightly bigger than Roundhouse version (or is it photographic distortion?).

Chris

ps apologies for this inquisition :mrgreen: but it is so good to find someone who is not only experienced but also has the two versions of the loco that interests me, that I cannot resist asking all these questions - hope you don't mind?

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by TonyW » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:51 pm

bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmI always thought that LBSC's idea of brazing frames to buffer beams made for much more rigid and stable loco, so I guess Ross's design (particularly when "poorly constructed") was likely to be flimsy...
Mine got new buffer beams on arrival as they were the main cause of the misaligned frames. Putting the fixings were they should have been squared-up the frames and stopped the running gear from binding.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmI guess you have improved matters by getting better axlebox springs? or did you dispense with springing altogether?
Mine still has its springs but with the stops all the same length it actually rides on the stops rather than the springs, which is fine. Better that than a later "bouncy" one with stronger springs, I feel.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmSpring stops of "different length" totally puzzle me - or was it another case of "poorly constructed"?
I'm afraid so. Basically they are a piece of stout wire soldered in to the top of each axle box so they should all be the same length.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmThere is a mention of springing problems in this report:
Garden Railway Club - Lilla
although I must admit I do not understand the solution proposed there?
Nor me, but I do know the person who owned that loco no longer does.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmDid 3/8" cylinder in Ross's loco cause it to be more temperamental than Roundhouse version? (as reported by David Jones on Yahoo group).
It did "scalded cat" very well, hence fitting of radio control. My experience of the Roundhouse version is that it is much more docile.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmDo you know dia of Roundhouse cylinder? Google search didn't come up with an answer so far...
No.
bambuko wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 pmThank you for the photo of the two suspects :D Strangely Swanage one looks slightly bigger than Roundhouse version (or is it photographic distortion?).
They were pretty much identical size-wise, although the chassis on the Roundhouse version is wider to accommodate use on 45mm track - no chance of that on the Swanage one.

The thing that puzzles me is where all of the Swanage ones are now...? I know of one other that is pretty much a Shelf Queen, and another is owned by a friend of mine (and runs nicely). I know several people who owned one but have sold them on. I know several people who had one on order but cancelled when their issues came to light.
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