"Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

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TonyW
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by TonyW » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:53 am

workwright wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:39 am
... Have you ever seen the work of Dave Shotter? His 16mm scale 3 1/2 ton Decauville type 1 tank was minute and beautiful in all respects - probably one one the finest models of a loco ever built, It ran for 30 minutes pulling 20 loaded skips at walking pace.
A true jewel of a model... (Photo by Kes Jones)
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:08 pm

workwright wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:39 am
Hi, over 30 years I have built about 400 locos.
and that's why your advice is so valuable!
Thank you :thumbright:
... The only commercial models (40 off) that were sprung were Balwin 4-6-0 tank locos... Not a good project from the commercial side ... It sort of answers your question ..
It sort of does, but I must admit that I am more interested in your private view, rather than (perfectly understandable) commercial constraints
i.e. if you were building one for yourself, would you bother and if yes, how would you go about it?
There is plenty of examples for standard gauge practice in any gauges (from O, through 1 all the way to 5", 7" etc).
When it comes to narrow gauge in small scales, they all seem to follow commercial practice of KISS.
The only example I've seen with springing was Ross Harrison's design and even this one has been bouncy and not very good (I am told ...).
Whether it was because of bad design or bad manufacturing - I don't know, although I am sure the latter played it's part.
...So no springing on 0-4-0 locos- too fiddly...
As you say, it's common practice in 16mm scale and I guess the only way I am going to answer it for myself is by building two examples one with and one without springing, or perhaps build three, with the third one having just equalisation, without springing
(something on the lines of what Kozo Hiraoka proposed for his Penn A3 switcher)to give three point suspension.
...Of the products, Hunslet, Tattoo, Wren have 3/8" ID cylinders... I think that problems of poor running are not due to cylinder bore...
So this confirms to me, that given careful manufacturing, there is no reason to go for this bucket size cylinders as an answer to indifferent handling.
Other factor, I guess, is that all these locos which "needed" 1/2" dia cylinders had boilers at 40 PSI, whereas yours are 60 PSI.
... Have you ever seen the work of Dave Shotter? His 16mm scale 3 1/2 ton Decauville type 1 tank was minute and beautiful in all respects - probably one one the finest models of a loco ever built...not watch making, just a model of a prototype made in minature to the drawings....
No, this is the first time I hear about the gentleman (sadly no longer with us I understand...)
The photo in TonyW reply (thank you Tony!) to your post gives some idea about the kind of quality we are talking about, and it shows what is really possible.
...If you get pleasure from making things get to the bench and make...
My 0-6-2 Fowler design is making slow progress, although I got slightly delayed dithering about axle springing arrangements in this one as well
(hence some of the questions here, not just about 0-4-0 Hunslet)
...Remember that it is only rarely I have the time to make something for myself ...
and that's why I appreciate even more, your time taken to reply to my questions - thank you!
1) A Chassis must be square
2) Quartering must be precise
3) No enlarging coupling rod holes to achieve free movement(see 2)
4) pinning + loctite is safer than loctite on its own
Amen to that as well!
My frames are brazed to buffer beams, making it very solid design, with final sizing in a milling machine (including axle slots, hornblocks etc) afterwards for accuracy and precision.
Wouldn't make sense as a commercial proposition,
but luckily for me I have no "clock ticking"
(apart from the limit imposed by grim reaper waiting for us all... :mrgreen: )

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by workwright » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:18 pm

Hi, thank you for your generous reply to my post. You are building for yourself, from your techniques used you are more than up to the challenge of springing. On those grounds alone I suggest you do at least use three point suspension, if not coil springing. If you do use coil springs to get the greatest chance of success place the springs partially into the axlebox. I would also suggest the use of ball races in the boxes. The springs will need experimentation. They are going to be a little over 6-8mm long and have an OD of round about 4mm. ( Make from piano wire and wind under tension round a 3mm former) They will seem stiff and probably push the box down on the hornstay. But do not panic until the loco is finished and there is water in the boiler. You won't be able to really be sure you have things right, rIght is a loco with the boxes about 1mm above the hornstay and when you push it over say a 1mm bump in the trank that box goes up without displacing the loco. You will now realise why springing is for the builder a bit tedious. The same result is much faster to achieve with an equalising beam. Either approach though is worth the effort. The model is no longer a toy, it will, given its mass glide through points and if the wheels are coned (2') not shuffle through curves. I have attached a photo of one of MY locos. THis is fully coil sprung, the bogie equalised and with prototypical sprung side control. The 4 wheel tender is equalised. It took about a year to make when I just made locos for friends and self. The one, a Beira Raiway Falcon 4-4-0 has all the non commercial gismos. A working crosshead water pump with bypass. Mechanical lubricator and silent gas fired grate with a locomotive boiler - superheaterer- DIsc regulator. The boiler also converts to solid fuel! No clock ticking on this one.
beira side.jpg
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by IanC » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:01 pm

Wow. Way beyond my skill and resources, but please allow me to drool over that beautiful workmanship.
Ian

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by Hydrostatic Dazza » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:02 pm

Snipped for clarity
workwright wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:18 pm
The one, a Beira Raiway Falcon 4-4-0 has all the non commercial gismos. A working crosshead water pump with bypass. Mechanical lubricator and silent gas fired grate with a locomotive boiler - superheaterer- DIsc regulator. The boiler also converts to solid fuel! No clock ticking on this one.beira side.jpg
Marvelous.
Please share more more pics of this loco and or point me in the direction where I can admire.
Cheers from Dazza, The Hydrostatic Lubricator 8)
The chances of finding out what’s really going on in the universe are so remote, the only thing to do is hang the sense of it and keep yourself occupied. Douglas Adams

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:27 am

Thank you Malcolm!
This thread is getting better with every post :D
Appreciate your encouragement and advice.
You have answered my questions and I shall dither no more :thumbup:
Just one confirmation/clarification, if you don't mind, please - you are talking about "...place the springs partially into the axlebox..."
If I understand you correctly the coil springs are free(just located in axlebox) rather than guided by some kind of stem/pin fixed to axlebox, as is a usual practice in larger scales?

1 - working crosshead water pump with bypass
2 - mechanical lubricator
3 - silent gas fired grate with a locomotive boiler
4 - superheaterer
5 - DIsc regulator
6 - The boiler also converts to solid fuel!

"...The model is no longer a toy..."


My sentiment exactly, although I am sure there is nothing wrong with toys either :mrgreen: (there are many ways to enjoy our excellent hobby).
BTW would love to see a set of plans available for this loco - though I am sure it is not a commercial proposition as per our earlier discussion :oops:
or a book about methods, techniques and design ideas - something like "Steam Trains In Your Garden" on steroids ...
Last edited by bambuko on Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by workwright » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:33 am

Hi, thank you all again for the generous comments. I do still build things for myself from time to time. It is only with constant challenge that the old grey matter does not cool down and set like forgotten porage! Quickly as I am baking the top coat on a batch of Wren locos as I write. Springs- sitting in slot drilled pockets inside the axle box, bearing on a pad just above the hornblock. centred on the frame centre line. Side cheeks of axlebox slightly radiused to allow slight tipping.
Bagnall safety valve, the loco above started out with "working" Salter- dismal failure- leaked, could not find a cosmetic solution that worked for the valves springs. So an ordinary safety valve is hidden in its place within the dome, springs just cosmetic.
Cab safety valves. I have a set in front of me when I fire a 1/3 scale Hunslet. It always makes me jump when they pop open, steam every where and the glasses totally misted up. Most sensible locos have some form of collector for the steam. At its simplest a couple of pipes over the valves and through the roof. Bagnall I think tended to shroud the valves it a nice to look at (hard to make) Brass dome evolving into a brass tube through the roof. Most narrow gauge locos I have seen (apart from Alice Class Hunslets) end up with a pipe or pipes dropped over. You need to go and find a similar loco to photograph. That is the only way if drawings do not have the answer. Where to go? My opinion is the best collection and inspiration is to be found at Statfold Barn on an open day.
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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by burrellsimplicity » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:45 pm

Hi,

This Lilla model sounds great. I have tried to get hold of back issues of the magazine but with limited success! it seems you can get them but the ones with the drawings are not available. :shock:

would anyone be so kind as to have a copy of the drawings they could send me via email or even post. I'm very interested in maybe trying to make one. at the moment my skills are in making large Traction engines 6" scale (Half Size) but i want to expand my 16mm range that consists of roundhouse "CHARLES" "MOUNTAINEER" and DLG "DOUBLE FAIRLIE" coming after xmas.

I'm sure you can see I like the FR locomotives and Hunslets!

Please PM me if your able to help and i can send my details for either email or post.

Thanks.

J

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by bambuko » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:27 pm

PM sent...

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Re: "Garden Rail" 1994 Ross Harrison's 16mm Hunslet (Lilla)

Post by burrellsimplicity » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:30 pm

Thank you. PM sent back with details.

:mrgreen:

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