Why Live Steam?

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ge_rik
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Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:54 am

I am not trying to be provocative - just trying to satisfy my curiosity.

The orthodoxy (in the UK at least) seems to be to run live steam locos on garden railways. I sometimes feel that my battery powered steam outline locos are regarded with a certain amount of puzzlement if not disdain. But I find that they suit my purposes well - in that I can run a train on a whim without a great deal of preparation and when I have four (sometimes five) locos in operation during a running session, I can happily pause a couple of trains round the layout while I get on with some shunting and then energise the other trains immediately I need to turn my attention back to them. I enjoy operating my railway like I imagine a real light railway might be run - and of course, one of my locos costs a fraction of a live steamer (I'd say my entire stock of fifteen locos have cost me about the same as one reasonably priced live steam loco).

I have explored live steam, but there seems to be a lot of initial faffing around, followed by twenty minutes of intense activity where it's difficult if not impossible to get the loco to run reliably at a realistic speed, and then the faffing is repeated. Live steam locos seem to be extremely demanding but to my mind give little in return.

Don't get me wrong - I love watching or rather experiencing real live steam locos - the sights, the smells, the sounds and even the feel of them. They are wonderful machines. I have tried a full-size steam loco driving experience and was distinctly underwhelmed. Maybe that's my problem. I just don't get a buzz out of driving a steam loco.

So what is the attraction of model live steam locos? What am I missing?

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Dwayne » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:02 pm

Since I lean more towards operations, my battery powered engine is perfect for this use. Up and running with a flip of a switch.

My sole live steamer (I had two but sold one) is more for the fun of watching it run a few laps around the layout. Novelty more than anything.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Big Jim » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:13 pm

I do enjoy running steamers, but I do see where you are coming from regarding the faffing about. I think that for me it is the whole thing with a lump of inert metal that becomes almost alive with the addition of water, gas and oil.
I like to see them running away in the background and perhaps this is just to add to the atmosphere of a well built railway.
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Busted Bricks » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:18 pm

It's the faffing about part I like. I love running manual steam engines. I'm not that interested in the scale part as long as it looks about right. With a properly laid track I can sit back and relax for 15-20 minutes while the train chugs along, do a bit of faffing, then sit back and enjoy some more running.

Electric and R/C is what I use for my model aircraft.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by TonyW » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:27 pm

ge_rik wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:54 am... but there seems to be a lot of initial faffing around, followed by twenty minutes of intense activity where it's difficult if not impossible to get the loco to run reliably at a realistic speed, and then the faffing is repeated.
I must be doing it wrong! :)

Initial faff (less than 10 minutes) is unavoidable, but 20 minutes of intense activity? No... More like 40 minutes for most locos. The loco will run on less than 10psi so that is used to put it on its train, and there is no need for the safety valve to lift. The longer run is achieved by turning the gas down enough so that only 20psi or so is maintained, so increasing run-time, reducing gas and water usage, oh, and forcing the loco to run at a realistic speed. Radio control obviously helps with the latter, but by running the loco in such a way that it is impossible for it to go racing off means that it will trundle around quite happily. I have a favourite fence post that I hang the r/c transmitter on once I have the loco behaving as it should. There is no need to touch the radio then and a nice drink/ice cream/pasty can be consumed while admiring the view.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Tag Gorton » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:55 pm

Interesting isn't it? of course it all comes down to personal preference. Personally I moved into the garden to run live steam locomotives. If I were to run track or battery power then I would most certainly remain comfortably within the confines of the central heating to do so. The description of steam running sounds like someone who does not know quite how to do it...the archetypical new Lady Anne driver continuously blowing off steam and charging along. It is perfectly possible to run at scale speeds. I have a range of motive power, almost all steam and perhaps the most enjoyable of them all is a coal fired tender locomotive with full RC and a steam chime whistle. This may be kept in steam all afternoon if required (including keeping it in light steam in a siding if I feel like a break). It is, to quote an old friend, 'the real thing in small handwriting'..

None of our modelling is however, perfect. No one, as yet gets on or off at our little stations. How we reproduce what we want to model is a personal choice but, for me, steam power and the great outdoors go together and frankly, steam outline locomotives seem somehow dead to me. I like the sight and sound of real steam working. It is how the prototype works. Again however, it is a matter of each to their own. It is only a hobby, our break from the real world
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by philipy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:23 pm

I think the difference between the two approaches is that Rik likes to run a railway service, whereas most live steam devotees just want to run the loco (with or without a realistic train behnd it) and derive their pleasure and satisfaction from that. As we've seen from Rik's videos, his timetable takes hours to run through and even with 40 minutes running time that simply wouldn't be practical. Battery electric is far more sensible for his scenario.
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:07 pm

philipy wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:23 pm I think the difference between the two approaches is that Rik likes to run a railway service, whereas most live steam devotees just want to run the loco (with or without a realistic train behnd it) and derive their pleasure and satisfaction from that. As we've seen from Rik's videos, his timetable takes hours to run through and even with 40 minutes running time that simply wouldn't be practical. Battery electric is far more sensible for his scenario.
Thanks Philip
You've accurately summed up my approach to the hobby. My greatest pleasure is running to a timetable and carrying out shunting operations as a mixed train or pickup goods wends its way down and then back up the line.

There are some summer evenings when I just want to sit back and watch a train trundle around, but I can and do do that. I'm planning on programming a couple of locos so they will slow to a stop and wait at each station before moving off again.

I very occasionally run my live steam loco as a novelty, but for me, that's all it is.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:15 pm

Big Jim wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:13 pm I do enjoy running steamers, but I do see where you are coming from regarding the faffing about. I think that for me it is the whole thing with a lump of inert metal that becomes almost alive with the addition of water, gas and oil.
I like to see them running away in the background and perhaps this is just to add to the atmosphere of a well built railway.
I can see the attraction here. There is something elemental about a steam loco. Maybe I need a loco which has an auto refill boiler and needs only occasional refuelling - if such a thing is feasible in 16mm scale.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Busted Bricks » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:23 pm

No reason why you can't fit an electric water pump with remote control and a large gas tank in a tender. Might require a larger lubricator as well.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:29 pm

Tag Gorton wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:55 pm ........ perhaps the most enjoyable of them all is a coal fired tender locomotive with full RC and a steam chime whistle. This may be kept in steam all afternoon if required (including keeping it in light steam in a siding if I feel like a break). It is, to quote an old friend, 'the real thing in small handwriting'..
Maybe that's what I need to explore. If it needs minimal attention and is very controllable, then I might be able to integrate it into the roster for an operating session.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:30 pm

Busted Bricks wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:23 pm No reason why you can't fit an electric water pump with remote control and a large gas tank in a tender. Might require a larger lubricator as well.
Hmmmm..... interesting.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by tom_tom_go » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:35 pm

Slomo Rik, it's all you need.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:40 pm

Tag Gorton wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:55 pm Interesting isn't it? of course it all comes down to personal preference. Personally I moved into the garden to run live steam locomotives. If I were to run track or battery power then I would most certainly remain comfortably within the confines of the central heating to do so.
That is interesting, Tag. So are you saying you wouldn't contemplate running a battery loco in the garden under any circumstances? Does the convenience of such motive power not appeal at all?

I accept the personal preference argument, but I'm just trying to figure out why there seems to be such a prejudicial view against battery power among the 16mm model railway community.


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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Tag Gorton » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:52 pm

There is certainly a learning curve with coal firing Rik. It is one of those things. Do remember learning to drive? I was knackered after an hours lesson. The same thing with coal firing and, like driving it becomes second nature. Have you ever driven to work and didn't remember going through ten sets of traffic lights?

My latest loco will be fitted with a steam powered feed water pump, not - as you might think - for use when running, (that is covered by an axle or crosshead pump) but when putting a loco in steam. Much more relaxing than a pump bottle or hand pump. No, I think it is more something for people like me. I have run on a layout with a timetable/shunting etc, but you see I prefer to watch the trains steam by on my simple but scenic narrow gauge line... As I said before it is each to one's own, there is not some sort of hierarchy in our hobby as far as most people are concerned. Different modellers concentrate on different aspects of railways. We are, all of us, slightly eccentric and all the better for it. I gain far more pleasure from conducting my hobby and modifying my locomotives than paying a lot of money to watch other people play football or walk around a golf course...

Oh I do have a little diesel locomotive. This is a much modified and heavily weathered Roundhouse Little John with RC, digital sound and inertial control. Lovely little thing which always makes people smile when they hear the start up sequence. I also have another diesel on order and this is something I will also modify. The fact is however, that my bucolic little line is based in a pre war Cornwall, and most motive power would be steam anyway.
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:58 pm

tom_tom_go wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:35 pm Slomo Rik, it's all you need.
That solves one of the issues, Tom, but doesn't overcome the time consuming faffing problem.

Maybe that's the crux of the issue. I really enjoy the operational sie of running a railway and so to me the locos are a means to that end, rather than an end in themselves.

What I'm still wrestling with, though, is why many 16 millers will have nothing to do with electricity as a power source for their locos. Ok, some will put batteries and a motor into a diesel outline loco, but it does seem as though there are many who consider it to be sacrilege to use electricity to power steam ouline locos.

I wonder if it stems from some sort of rivalry between G Scalers and 16 millers?

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Busted Bricks » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:02 pm

I think the ability to run live steam is what attracts people to this scale. That was certainly the case for me.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by tom_tom_go » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:11 pm

I don't faff.

My coal fired loco can get in steam quicker than most gas locos.

I think you need to spend some time with some proper live steamers in person.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:22 pm

Tag Gorton wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:52 pm There is certainly a learning curve with coal firing Rik. It is one of those things. Do remember learning to drive? I was knackered after an hours lesson. The same thing with coal firing and, like driving it becomes second nature. Have you ever driven to work and didn't remember going through ten sets of traffic lights?

My latest loco will be fitted with a steam powered feed water pump, not - as you might think - for use when running, (that is covered by an axle or crosshead pump) but when putting a loco in steam. Much more relaxing than a pump bottle or hand pump. No, I think it is more something for people like me. I have run on a layout with a timetable/shunting etc, but you see I prefer to watch the trains steam by on my simple but scenic narrow gauge line... As I said before it is each to one's own, there is not some sort of hierarchy in our hobby as far as most people are concerned. Different modellers concentrate on different aspects of railways. We are, all of us, slightly eccentric and all the better for it. I gain far more pleasure from conducting my hobby and modifying my locomotives than paying a lot of money to watch other people play football or walk around a golf course...

Oh I do have a little diesel locomotive. This is a much modified and heavily weathered Roundhouse Little John with RC, digital sound and inertial control. Lovely little thing which always makes people smile when they hear the start up sequence. I also have another diesel on order and this is something I will also modify. The fact is however, that my bucolic little line is based in a pre war Cornwall, and most motive power would be steam anyway.
That's fascinating, Tag. I might get more enjoyment from a coal fired loco, though maybe it would need an auto feed water pump so I can cut down on the faffing.

Looks like our posts have crossed. I see you have a couple of battery powered diesel outline locos so electricity is not completely outside your purview. However, I take it from your post that you would never consider having a battery powered steam outlne loco. Now, I appreciate that in your case, as the accepted guru of 16mm live steam , this might seem to be a somewhat redundant or even outrageous question, but I'm just trying to figure out why such a prospect is considered to be untenable by the majority of the 16mm community.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:25 pm

Busted Bricks wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:02 pm I think the ability to run live steam is what attracts people to this scale. That was certainly the case for me.
OK but why not also have a battery loco or two to run once in a while? Why does to have to be live steam, exclusively?

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