Why Live Steam?

[Busted Bricks]

I was a very early adopter of electric power in R/C flight and sold off my IC engines straight after having flown my first electric model. Therefore I'm very familiar with the various types of cells, chargers and R/C equipment. I also have some manufacturing capabilities. I wonder if the world is ready for more steam outline electric kits? Maybe they aren't popular because of the lack of commercially available items? Perhaps cost is a factor? I don't know. What I do know is that a loco kit can be put together quite cheaply if it doesn't have to be all steel and brass (and no reason why it needs to be since there is no heat or oil involved). IIRC there were some printed cardboard kits available some years ago.

[Hydrostatic Dazza]

I can see from Dazza and Tom's responses that there is an emotional component associated with running a live steam loco which can't be replicated in any other way. Presumably this emotion is only inspired by steam power?

Rik
PS As Tom says, wonderful photos.
PPS Does that mean I'd have to get up at 3.00am to get the full experience the next time I run my live steam loco?

Many get wet and sticky when they hear an English Electric notch up.
One day the punters will get wet and sticky when they hear a big Electric hum under the cantenary, (you would wonder why but life is like that)
So the emotion can be found in all forms.
It is about having fun with some satisfaction and intrinsic rewards.

A wise woman once said to me, the most important part of having fun is having the wisdom to pause, contemplate, appreciate and recognise, "that this is fun and a good moment of life"

PPS. For a partial experience, at least get dressed up in the kit and pull the fob watch out of the pocket to check the whistle out time from the steaming bays

[DG]

Rik,

You asked about the attraction of live steam.

An idea to help the analysis. Emulating what you like about the hobby but with steam instead of electric

As well as prompting this discussion you could do a live experiment. e.g. You could run your schedule with live steamers. This would present new logistical problems (a harder planned schedule to conceive, loco preparation time, siting and delivery of resources, coordination) and you would probably need a number of operators. It may provide a new insight.

I started out with a LGB starter set which we still run and I also run live steam. Love them both for different reasons.

Dave

[dewintondave]

I have explored live steam, but there seems to be a lot of initial faffing around, followed by twenty minutes of intense activity where it's difficult if not impossible to get the loco to run reliably at a realistic speed, and then the faffing is repeated. Live steam locos seem to be extremely demanding but to my mind give little in return.
Rik

There's also a lot of nervous excitement beforehand too, which must afterwards result in the release of endorphins, which makes it addictive. You haven't been experiencing this with battery powered of course

I love the faffing around so much that I can just run round my loop with a big grin on my face.

I love all the controls, and add more. Even to my simple little De Wintons, I added blowers, pressure gauges, blowdown valves, adjustable lubricator, re-routed the exhaust. I just wouldn't be satisfied with a commercial gas fired steamer

[ge_rik]

Overnight, I've been trying to decide if I get the same sort of emotional hit which Tom, Tag, Dazza and deWinton Dave have described when I run my 'soulless electric mice'.

I suppose my emotional involvement comes from the satisfaction I get in watching a train which is entirely of my own making meandering its way at a realistic speed through a landscape which I have created. With soundcards, there's also the aural component which adds to that experience.

Does the fact my stock are not perfect scale models or my locos electrically powered rather than steam powered diminish the buzz I get from all this? No, I don't think so.

Rik

[ge_rik]

As well as prompting this discussion you could do a live experiment. e.g. You could run your schedule with live steamers. This would present new logistical problems (a harder planned schedule to conceive, loco preparation time, siting and delivery of resources, coordination) and you would probably need a number of operators. It may provide a new insight.
Dave

Hi Dave
I think I would have to start off with just one live steamer, maybe running the copper ore skips to and from the mine. Sounds like trying to organise four live steamers and their drivers might be a bridge too far initially.

Rik

[Big Jim]

IMHO nigh on impossible.

[pandsrowe]

Well, if nothing else this thread has certainly promoted some spirited and emotional responses. I don't ever recall seeing such before, four pages of replies in just over one day and so far no real answer to Rik's original question. Personally I run both live steam and battery electric steam outline depending on the time available, steam for preference but there are numerous occasions where the rapid convenience of battery electric is hard to beat. Also thinking about the members of my local area group (north west Norfolk) I would say that there is more live steam than electric but as to why, maybe a question I will pose at our next get together later this month.

[ge_rik]

I just now got a flash of inspiration in the shower (no bawdy comments please).

I think the main difference seems to one of emphasis. In my posts, I think I keep mentioning the importance to me of the 'train' whereas for the live steamers their focus is inevitably on the 'locomotive'. When I've run my live steam loco and when I've been with live steam 'drivers', everything else seems to be eclipsed by the loco. The rolling stock is secondary and the notion of shunting wagons into an authentic roster is a rare occurance.

For me, the train is the focus. The loco just happens to be the bit of that that marshalls the stock and leads it from one location to the other.

When browsing through books on railways, I seldom loiter over photos of locos but I will spend ages poring over pictures of station yards or trains of mixed goods.

Rik

[philipy]

Rik,
Thats exactly the point I was trying to make, diplomatically, in my post yesterday and 4 pages ago! For me, it's always been my goal, in whatever scale I'm working in, to create a model OF a railway and not a "Model Railway". That is the beauty of being outdoors, it allows for space which the indoor scales can never have, but for me there is no overriding reason to go live steam simply because it is outdoors.
I can now hear the screams about me saying "model of a railway" and therefore it should be live steam steam loco's only, but that is no more valid than saying meths or gas fired should be banned and only coal fired allowed.

PS I also agree with you about the more interesting book pictures.

[LNR]

Not wishing to offend at all Rik, but I remember watching your speeded up video of a running session which showed you putting out various buildings, and assembling lines of wagons ( you surely must have one of the largest rollingstock rosters ) and whilst enjoying the video thoroughly, I couldn't stand all that "faffing about" before I run a train.
Having chosen a narrow gauge theme, and as much of our narrow gauge in Victoria ran only one engine in steam, I feel I can emulate that well. Also while I do love working the loco and driving by hand I've still got to make sure wagons are in the right order to come off where required, stock car immediately behind loco etc.
Running frequently reducers the faffing time immensely, I regularly find at exhibitions that I can get a train together, raise steam, and be running before many have signed on the register, and fill in gaps if someone is having trouble.
I guess we all have a different priority for doing what we do, and how we do it.
Grant.

[invicta280]

If there was no live steam option for garden rail, I would probably try an electric railway/tramway in G1 or similar using 3rd rail or catenary.
For some reason the larger the scale the less I like the idea of something pretending to be what it's not. In 2mm/3mm/4mm scales I'm quite happy to suspend belief and accept a 'steam' locomotive powered by electric. I would expect everything on an N scale layout to be electric; different art form.

I have a partly built 'diesel' railcar which runs on an IP battery unit and I'm in two minds about that. It's not diesel, so I'll always feel it's a bit of a pantomime horse. On the other hand I've converted a Lost in Space chariot into a P.W. inspection vehicle which also runs on an IP unit and I'm quite O.K. with that!

Having said all that I admire the videos from the Peckforton line where the trains run at realistic speeds through a beautiful sylvan setting, exactly what you'd expect from a rural narrow gauge line.

[ge_rik]

Not wishing to offend at all Rik, but I remember watching your speeded up video of a running session which showed you putting out various buildings, and assembling lines of wagons ( you surely must have one of the largest rollingstock rosters ) and whilst enjoying the video thoroughly, I couldn't stand all that "faffing about" before I run a train.
Having chosen a narrow gauge theme, and as much of our narrow gauge in Victoria ran only one engine in steam, I feel I can emulate that well. Also while I do love working the loco and driving by hand I've still got to make sure wagons are in the right order to come off where required, stock car immediately behind loco etc.
Running frequently reducers the faffing time immensely, I regularly find at exhibitions that I can get a train together, raise steam, and be running before many have signed on the register, and fill in gaps if someone is having trouble.
I guess we all have a different priority for doing what we do, and how we do it.
Grant.

Hi Grant
From what I've seen (and admired) about your railway, I think you seem to have an ideal compromise. You create real atmosphere - in the complete sense - of running a railway and use live steam to achieve it.

Maybe one of the real issues is what we each regard as 'faff' and our tolerance to it. In an ideal world, I would leave all my stock outside between operating sessions so that I could resume operations where I left off. Setting out and gathering up the stock (and buildings) is a faff I have to put up with to achieve my objective of running a complete light railway in miniature.

In the days before I had an outdoor railway I had a neighbour who, like me, had built an 00 gauge model railway in his loft. When I described one of my operating sessions (with timetabled trains and shunting operations) he was horrified by what he regarded as my faff. An operating session for him was running a series of pre-assembled trains from his fiddle yard around his layout. His only concession was to pause some of the passenger trains in the station - goods trains trundled through without ever stopping.

With my indoor railway, I could leave all my stock in the sidings between operating sessions but, even in the loft, the railway was only a small section of a complete railway system (a through station, a branch station and a fiddle yard), whereas in the garden I have been able to recreate a whole light railway system in miniature.

Rik

[GTB]

For me, the train is the focus. The loco just happens to be the bit of that that marshalls the stock and leads it from one location to the other.

Rik, you aren't alone out there in running steam outline electric locos. Accucraft make at least some of their scale models available in electric versions, especially in the US market. I know one garden railway owner who only runs steam outline locos that are powered by electrickery and I know he would freak if I rocked up with a steamer expecting to be able to run it.

in my 50+ years in the hobby I've met three basic types of railway modellers, the scale makes little difference.....

- Operators, whose main interest is in running their own railway. The train is the thing, the loco is secondary. In some cases signals are the thing and the trains are secondary.

In the small scales I've visited model railways where the trains were all old well used Tri-ang, but run to a strict timetable, signals, bell codes etc. One of them didn't even have scenery, but did have working miniature staff machines. I also have friends who model a specific railway with fine scale models, who get together every week to run to a strict timetable, following the real railway's rule book.

- Builders, whose main interest is in the model making process. I know some whose only layout is vertical, ie. a glass display case.

-Collectors. If you can't build trains, but love them, then you have to buy them, but the collector gene is strong in humans and can take over your life. Been there, done that..........

All the railway modellers I've ever met basically fall into one of those groups, although often with at least some overlap into the other two.


Me? I'm firmly in the builder group and the main reason I now model live steam in large scale is to keep busy in my retirement doing something I enjoy. I have neither the skills, nor the eyesight, to get them to work in HO. Anything bigger than 2 1/2" gauge is hernia country anyway and I don't have the space, or the time left to build in the ride in scales, so 15mm/ft is an ideal size for my purposes.

As Grant will tell you, I have close to zero interest in operating and I can't stand gardening. While I will probably build a track out the back it will be just a raised test track that I can use for testing the steam powered locos I build.

I never knew the VR narrow gauge, as I grew up in a house across the road from a broad gauge mainline in northern Victoria. My idea of a real train is two big 4-6-4 locos blasting up a 1:70 grade with 1500+ tons of wheat behind them. I don't have the space and won't live long enough to reproduce that in Gauge 1, so I keep my mind working and occupy my time in the workshop building ng steam locos and rolling stock.

I'm happy being the CME in my own little world, rather than the Chief Traffic Manager, but it would be a pretty miserable world if we were all expected to be the same. Although the self appointed anti-fun brigade in this hobby would love to see that happen.........

Regards,
Graeme

[Dwayne]

Live steam is the exception over here. Same goes for battery/rc equiped lokies (diesel or steam outline). The majority of modelers on this side of the pond are still running track power. Guys here are ga-ga over Bachmann shays and other large scale steam outline engines on the market.

I think the primary consideration is the level of ops being done on the layout. I enjoy watching live steam videos and have noticed that most are of solitary engines and if they are pulling a string of wagons... not doing any switching. Live steam does not lend itself to switching ops before the fire goes out. So when I run my steamer, it's just for the fun of watching it do laps.

Like Rik, I'm more interested in ops. I think this makes me a model railroader which is what I've been doing since my introduction to model trains as a little boy down in the basement nearly fifty years ago.

[ge_rik]

If there was no live steam option for garden rail, I would probably try an electric railway/tramway in G1 or similar using 3rd rail or catenary.
For some reason the larger the scale the less I like the idea of something pretending to be what it's not. In 2mm/3mm/4mm scales I'm quite happy to suspend belief and accept a 'steam' locomotive powered by electric. I would expect everything on an N scale layout to be electric; different art form.

I've been mulling this idea over. One of my other interests is visiting narrow gauge and miniature railways and I must confess that if a miniature railway is running a i/c powered steam outline loco I am not as impressed as if it is live steam. So clearly I have a cut-off point as to the scale at which I will accept a model steam loco as having to be steam powered. Thinking about it though, for me, if the driver actually sits in or behind the steam loco and drives it (and fires it), then it would have to be live steam. When it is smaller and the 'driver' is remote from the loco - then I can tolerate a model steam loco being powered by other means. Clearly for others such as yourself, this level of toleration is much lower.

I'm pleased to see that Slomo has been developed for 16mm steam locos as it means they now have the means of running more realistically. I do accept that some 16 millers are extremely adept at operating their non-Slomo locos at scale speeds but from my experience and from various videos I've seen on Youtube, this seems to be the exception rather than the rule. For me, shunting (switching) and slow running are essential components of my railway operating experience.

Interesting that Dwayne says that electric power is the accepted norm for garden railways across the pond. I believe this is also the case in Oz and NZ though Graeme and Grant my argue otherwise. Not sure what the situation is in Continental Europe, but I suspect electric power predominates. I wonder why UK garden railway modellers are less tolerant of electric power than in other parts of the world. Curious........

Rik

[Busted Bricks]

I think some people just get at kick out of seeing a train at full speed. Personally, I like mine to move really slow.

[markoteal]

I agree 'each to their own' -as someone who now dabbles (well I'm just building my first two battery powered steam locos) in all 3 areas under discussion, I like having the options that all 3 routes offer - depends on my mood what I run and how I run it

At the end of the day, we all run on the same tracks (well give or take 13mm) and want to enjoy doing so as a hobby, whether we are operators, builders or dabblers!

[DLRdan]

Perhaps those that run in circles in the garden are getting the operational side from elsewhere, an indoor smaller scale layout perhaps.

[GTB]

Interesting that Dwayne says that electric power is the accepted norm for garden railways across the pond. I believe this is also the case in Oz and NZ though Graeme and Grant my argue otherwise.

I help a friend with his sales stand at exhibitions and from what I see the most common garden railway in Aust. is probably track powered LGB. Live steam would be a minority if the relative size of the sales stands is any indication.

It's hard to know for sure. Most Aust modellers fly under the radar, especially if they have a garden railway. Too many dropkicks around.........

Regards,
Graeme

I wonder why UK garden railway modellers are less tolerant of electric power than in other parts of the world. Curious........

From this distance, steam seems to be something of a religion to some people in the UK. If any adherents are true believers, that's what happens............