Why Live Steam?

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IrishPeter
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by IrishPeter » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:48 pm

I have a theory, which I will probably never write up in a scientific manner, that had the Beeching Report not been implemented, and the principle of Public Service Obligation conceded earlier we might actually have something approaching a rational national network. Certainly the closures of the 1950s had removed a lot of true duplicate routes, but by the time you get to the Beeching closures there are definitely cases where muscle was cut, rather than fat.

One of the more egregious examples of short termism was the decision to cancel York - Mkt. Weighton - Beverley resignalling in 1962 until the Beeching Report was completed. The reason I pick on this example is that the CTC scheme that would have singled the line apart from a couple of dynamic passing loops, automated the many level crossings, and eliminated all but two of the signal boxes on the line. The estimates showed that this would have reduced annual costs by approximately GBP50,000 a year transforming a loss of GBP40,000 a year into an operating surplus of around GBP10,000. It was estimated that the CTC scheme would have paid for itself in 6 years, well within the then budgetary guidelines for British Railways. Instead the line was closed, and worse still closed by using "fuzzy maths." Revenue from Hull to York passengers was not counted because Beeching's team held that the traffic would simply move to the Hull-Selby-York Route despite the fact that that journey usually involved a change of train. (FWIW, much of the through traffic was lost because folks travelling between York and Hull refused to change at Selby, and the handful of direct trains via Church Fenton did not offer a competitive service.) They also ignored the savings that could be achieved by modernisation, which in the case of the York to Beverley line had already been costed, and proven to be economically sound. The suspicion always hangs about the Beeching Report that it was basically a way of white washing a declared Ministry of Roa... erm Transport policy of switching investment from Rail to Road to benefit the oil/rubber/car industries. It is also perhaps indicative of the clout of the T&GWU in those days that Wilson had no problem ratting on his promise to halt the closures for further review when elected PM in 1964.

In the end, the only thing the Beeching Report proved was that the railway system does not function the same way as ICI!

Now I have that off my chest, there is a strong base for saying that nostalgia, and a well developed sense of Britain's industrial heritage combine with a relative dense population has a lot to do with the number of heritage lines that exist in England and Wales. By comparison Scotland has few, and except for the SRPS at Bo'ness, and the Speyside Railway, they are relative late comers, so far as I understand it.

Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:15 am

Fascinating insight into one of the dodgy decisions underlying the Beeching cuts - interesting too that at the same time, there was no problem finding money for road building.

There are a couple of heritage narrow gauge lines in Scotland as well. Shame no one has resurrected the C&M, but then I suppose it is a bit out on a limb.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by daan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am

Untill my live steam loco's I was "playing trains". Sitting on the side, turning a wheel or pushing a lever, and the train in front of me would start to run. Whatever train was on the track, the same simple procedure would get anything to live, even 2 or 3 trains at the same time.

With live steam, it's like prepairing a ritual. You need to prepare the engine, clean it, lubricate it, fill her up with water, fuel and light her fire. then you check the noise. Do I still hear the rumbling noise in her belly, or is it hissing again? Then wait for the pressuregauge to start floating on it's scale.

After a while she's blowing off and you need to turn the gas low. With a lever in the locomotive I select the direction and feel the light shudder in the little engine of steam starting to push the pistons. Then with another lever I can choose the amount of steam to the pistons and by doing that she starts rumbling along, spitting hot water from the chimney, like the dragon spits her fire.

After a round on the railwayline, the cylinders have heated up and I can close the regulator a bit, causing the oil to drip down in the chimney and burn in the firetube, causing blue smoke and the distinct smell of steamoil. As she rumbles along with her train, the engine wiggles slightly in the rythm of her cylinderstrokes, chuffing and leaving a plume of hot smoke in the air above her.

No way I can control 2 or even 3 engines at the same time. Her flamboyant character needs constant attention, regulating steam and gas, checking the waterlevel, until a sudden drop in power and a following plume of blue smoke attents on the end of the gas supply, then I need to get the regulator open and try to squeeze out the last bits of steam to get her and her train into the next station when possible, or past that difficult to reacht corner in the layout.

Then, when finished running, drain the hot lubricator, clean the spilt oil and steam residu of the engine and empty the remains of the water from the boiler, leaving al filling caps only one turn open, to give the boiler breathing space. With that the session ends.

So if you want to play trains: electric or batterypower is sufficient and great. If you want to actually drive an engine, then live steam is the way to go. But they are worlds apart and both are a totally different approach on the same hobby imho, not being able to be compared with eachother..
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:14 am

daan wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am Untill my live steam loco's I was "playing trains". Sitting on the side, turning a wheel or pushing a lever, and the train in front of me would start to run. Whatever train was on the track, the same simple procedure would get anything to live, even 2 or 3 trains at the same time.

With live steam, it's like prepairing a ritual. You need to prepare the engine, clean it, lubricate it, fill her up with water, fuel and light her fire. then you check the noise. Do I still hear the rumbling noise in her belly, or is it hissing again? Then wait for the pressuregauge to start floating on it's scale.

After a while she's blowing off and you need to turn the gas low. With a lever in the locomotive I select the direction and feel the light shudder in the little engine of steam starting to push the pistons. Then with another lever I can choose the amount of steam to the pistons and by doing that she starts rumbling along, spitting hot water from the chimney, like the dragon spits her fire.

After a round on the railwayline, the cylinders have heated up and I can close the regulator a bit, causing the oil to drip down in the chimney and burn in the firetube, causing blue smoke and the distinct smell of steamoil. As she rumbles along with her train, the engine wiggles slightly in the rythm of her cylinderstrokes, chuffing and leaving a plume of hot smoke in the air above her.

No way I can control 2 or even 3 engines at the same time. Her flamboyant character needs constant attention, regulating steam and gas, checking the waterlevel, until a sudden drop in power and a following plume of blue smoke attents on the end of the gas supply, then I need to get the regulator open and try to squeeze out the last bits of steam to get her and her train into the next station when possible, or past that difficult to reacht corner in the layout.

Then, when finished running, drain the hot lubricator, clean the spilt oil and steam residu of the engine and empty the remains of the water from the boiler, leaving al filling caps only one turn open, to give the boiler breathing space. With that the session ends.

So if you want to play trains: electric or batterypower is sufficient and great. If you want to actually drive an engine, then live steam is the way to go. But they are worlds apart and both are a totally different approach on the same hobby imho, not being able to be compared with eachother..
That's poetic

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Tag Gorton » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 am

I certainly don't see your posts as knocking live steam and indeed in many areas we think the same. For instance both of us like to run our trains through a proper scale infrastructure. My whole (admittedly small) back garden is 16mm scale (other than a removable washing whirly) including miniature trees cultivated over many years. I have several pet hates when it comes to steam locomotion and one of them is seeing trains run without at least a driver. Most of mine are modified to fit a full footplate crew. I also am not keen on those huge 3/4in pressure gauges and all mine are changed to half inch jobbies located on the back of the spectacle plate. The very simplified body shells of Roundhouse generic locos make me want to alter and adjust and I add and modify both to improve appearance and function. For instance I have an Accucraft Mk 1 Ragleth that has RC whistle and draincocks, working spectacles and a near empty cab with plenty of room for footplate crew. The locomotive also has many cosmetic improvements in terms of believable detail. I spent some months working on this comparatively cheap locomotive and am now very pleased with the results. All my locomotives get this sort of treatment and all have at least a working whistle in terms of functioning improvements. Other peeves are fast running (this is the narrow gauge) and trains running with safeties blasting off!!

In terms of my own railway, my small garden seriously limits what I could do in terms of proper train working and indeed it really is a 'watching the trains go by' enterprise. I have run on lines with full signalling and indeed have tried timetabled running under steam. Now actually this can work very well, however the main requirement here is that each steam locomotive must have a driver and each signal box a signaller, which sort of precludes regular timetabled running and owners of such a narrow gauge enterprise under steam will tend to run trains ad hoc if there are only a couple of attendees. Now, while I subscribe to the dictum that garden railways are like sex (best enjoyed in the company of at least one other person) it is rare that enough people who are at home with that particular fully signalled railway are gathered together to run as desired...

I moved into the garden for steam power. it is as simple as that. I do like things to run under the power that the prototype runs under. For instance I do like trams running under the wires - they even sound like the prototype. Also I am still waiting for a decent live diesel – and it will come! Now Rik, one thing does baffle me. I have run indoor layouts of course, but if a model railway is track powered then I don't understand why one would want to leave the confines of the central heating to run trains! I run trains in the winter (the steam effects cab be glorious) but otherwise as far as I can see, the only other reason for moving outside is lack of a reasonably sized spare room! I would reiterate, that however we do it, this is a pleasurable hobby and a comparatively broad church.
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by FWLR » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 am

I really don’t care how locos are run and if things look out of place, so what. Most don’t run either live or battery so we can please other’s, it’s ourselves who are happiest when we run our loco’s, if you had a mirror in front of you and you could see your reflection, you would probably have the widest smile you would ever likely to see.... :thumbright: :thumbright:

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:17 am

Tag Gorton wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 am I certainly don't see your posts as knocking live steam and indeed in many areas we think the same. For instance both of us like to run our trains through a proper scale infrastructure. My whole (admittedly small) back garden is 16mm scale (other than a removable washing whirly) including miniature trees cultivated over many years. I have several pet hates when it comes to steam locomotion and one of them is seeing trains run without at least a driver. Most of mine are modified to fit a full footplate crew. I also am not keen on those huge 3/4in pressure gauges and all mine are changed to half inch jobbies located on the back of the spectacle plate. The very simplified body shells of Roundhouse generic locos make me want to alter and adjust and I add and modify both to improve appearance and function. For instance I have an Accucraft Mk 1 Ragleth that has RC whistle and draincocks, working spectacles and a near empty cab with plenty of room for footplate crew. The locomotive also has many cosmetic improvements in terms of believable detail. I spent some months working on this comparatively cheap locomotive and am now very pleased with the results. All my locomotives get this sort of treatment and all have at least a working whistle in terms of functioning improvements. Other peeves are fast running (this is the narrow gauge) and trains running with safeties blasting off!!
I can see the attraction of making modifications to any off the shelf model - regardless of whether it's live steam or electrically powered. Makes them personal.
Tag Gorton wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 am In terms of my own railway, my small garden seriously limits what I could do in terms of proper train working and indeed it really is a 'watching the trains go by' enterprise. I have run on lines with full signalling and indeed have tried timetabled running under steam. Now actually this can work very well, however the main requirement here is that each steam locomotive must have a driver and each signal box a signaller, which sort of precludes regular timetabled running and owners of such a narrow gauge enterprise under steam will tend to run trains ad hoc if there are only a couple of attendees. Now, while I subscribe to the dictum that garden railways are like sex (best enjoyed in the company of at least one other person) it is rare that enough people who are at home with that particular fully signalled railway are gathered together to run as desired...
Must admit that I quite like doing my own thing (Garden Railwaywise, I hasten to add!!). That's probably why I favour electric power - I can happily have four or five locos 'in steam', switching my attention between them. So far, I've only had one visitor who seemed interested in operating my timetable / freight management approach with me - and he came from New Zealand. Maybe I should put an ad in the SMT lonely hearts column....
Tag Gorton wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 am I moved into the garden for steam power. it is as simple as that. I do like things to run under the power that the prototype runs under. For instance I do like trams running under the wires - they even sound like the prototype. Also I am still waiting for a decent live diesel – and it will come! Now Rik, one thing does baffle me. I have run indoor layouts of course, but if a model railway is track powered then I don't understand why one would want to leave the confines of the central heating to run trains! I run trains in the winter (the steam effects cab be glorious) but otherwise as far as I can see, the only other reason for moving outside is lack of a reasonably sized spare room! I would reiterate, that however we do it, this is a pleasurable hobby and a comparatively broad church.
It was certainly the space that attracted me to the garden - the fulfilment of my long-term desire to build a complete light railway system (even the loft wasn't big enough for that). I abandoned track power pretty quickly in favour of battery power - too much hassle cleaning track and trying to maintain electrical continuity.

I've now come to appreciate that the main motivating factor for a lot of garden railway modellers is steam (somewhat impractical indoors for the majority). I suppose my motivation has always been to run a complete railway system - I don't think it's latent megalomania.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:06 pm

Tag Gorton wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 am Now Rik, one thing does baffle me. I have run indoor layouts of course, but if a model railway is track powered then I don't understand why one would want to leave the confines of the central heating to run trains! I run trains in the winter (the steam effects cab be glorious) but otherwise as far as I can see, the only other reason for moving outside is lack of a reasonably sized spare room! I would reiterate, that however we do it, this is a pleasurable hobby and a comparatively broad church.
Something else which occurred to me while I was just taking my aged ma out for a coffee - the other reason is that I have always wanted to build an outdoor railway. Ever since I read about Don Neale's magnificent 7mm garden railway and Peter Denny's Trepolpen Light Railway in Railway Modeller in the 1960s and 70s, I've hankered after building an outdoor railway. I even experimented with a short length of 00 track around the fish pond in my parents' garden but quickly realised it was impractical.

There's something very satisfying about seeing a mixed goods train threading its way through real foliage and running beside real moving water. I much prefer the outdoors to being closeted away inside and, these days, it's a lot easier on the eyesight and for my stubby fingers to be fettling 16mm scale bits and bobs than 00n3 or 009.

I started with 45mm off the shelf models for convenience when I was holding down a very time consuming full time job but very quickly started bashing, kit-building and scratch-building as I wanted a UK based railway (Accucraft hadn't started producing their models when I started). But timetabled train services and believable freight handling were very high on my agenda (always have been, even when modelling indoors).

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by IrishPeter » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:09 pm

One of the 'givens' when I started the original outdoor line was it would not be track power, even though that is the dominant method in the USA. At the time I lived in a pine forest, and they are very promiscuous about dripping resin all over everything, so the prospect of scraping that off the track sort of loaded the dice against track power. Also the prospect of laying additional cabling to alleviate voltage drop, etc., etc.. In short - too much pain; not enough gain. I was looking mainly at battery electric in the early planning stages, but then I built an Accucraft 'Ruby' from a kit, so we ended up with Ga. 1 steam as one aspect of what I was doing. The Skebawn and Castleknox was born shortly thereafter. This has now morphed into live steam in the basement, though there is a little black "diesel" that gets a lot of use when I just want to do some shunting in among other things.

I also have a bit of a thing for 2'6"/760mm/750mm gauge railways, mainly thanks to a fascination with Calthrop's ideas regarding Light Railways, and the Sierra Leone system. A couple of times the old line nearly morphed from Fn3 to SM45 to accommodate this, but the decision was made quite quickly when I got here that two small lines were more practical than one big one, which opened the door for exploring this side of the hobby. The suitable space for an outdoor line is limited due to the slope on the garden, which was handy for Jubal Early, but is a pain in my behind when it comes to a railway. Even in the limited area that is flat enough the gradients were such that timetable running with live steam would probably be problematical. The kettles therefore are confined to the basement, and the outdoor line follows a different line of attack.

I am also into operations which is why the third version of the track plan for the Coverdale Light Railway was designed with timetable running in mind, though I doubt there is another Ga.0/13.5mm scale nutter within 300 miles of here. The sneaky turn-back through Middleham allows trains from both Leyburn and Coverdale to go clockwise around the railway before crossing and going to the opposite terminus. It was one of those ideas that came to me after a couple halves of Devil's Backbone Danzig Porter, though I am sure I have seen it in many another track plan without necessarily twigging that was what it was for! Multiple train operation with steam is out, but I should be able to run a timetable with a couple of battery diesels without too much in the way of brain cramps, or rear end collisions.

I have certainly learned a lot from the folks on here - especially, it seems from those whose approach is very different to mine. The more model engineering orientated guys like LNR sort of push me to do better; Rik is a great advocate for battery-electric and radio control, and the railway through the landscape approach; Brian's old railway, the Mid-Derbys was a constant inspiration in the early days of the Skebawn and Castleknox; and I share a couple of Tag's pet peeves. And there are many others...

Thanks, guys!
Peter in Va
Traffic Pattern? What pattern? Spuds out; grain in, but cattle, sheep and passengers are a lot less predictable.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:31 pm

IrishPeter wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:09 pm I have certainly learned a lot from the folks on here - especially, it seems from those whose approach is very different to mine. The more model engineering orientated guys like LNR sort of push me to do better; Rik is a great advocate for battery-electric and radio control, and the railway through the landscape approach; Brian's old railway, the Mid-Derbys was a constant inspiration in the early days of the Skebawn and Castleknox; and I share a couple of Tag's pet peeves. And there are many others...

Thanks, guys!
Peter in Va
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Thanks for putting me among such illustrious company - I feel honoured (and more than a little daunted by the sense of responsibility).

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Tag Gorton » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:55 pm

Ah the Trepolpen. I went down to Truro to see Peter Denny quite a few years ago to write an article about his garden railway for Model Railway Enthusiast. Absolutely fascinating and I know that the local 9 Gauge group used to visit regularly for running days when every signal box was manned. Mind the most interesting part of the visit was to see the indoor model Buckingham Great Central working. He had a sort of clockwork computer that he used to replace his son Crispin after the latter left home. One really interesting bit was to see the slip coaches in action. These had a flywheel inside and the express would speed through and leave the slip coach to trundle into the platform...
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by artfull dodger » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:35 pm

I have found the solution to nice slow running on a small railway, a Roundhouse engine with its rock solid dependable design, combined with the SSP Slomo inertia device. Even in manual control, my Billy is as sedate and well behaved as a geared model, yet he looks like a normal side rod model to the casual observer. Only at high speeds(not prototypical narrow gauge speed mind you) does gear noise from the Slomo become really audable. The Slomo gives Billy the mass of the real model that does not scale down in reality. He will drift just as a real engine will when the throttle is closed. When you start out, just like a real engine, you open the throttle right up, then as he starts to move, close it right back down to nearly off. Billy will settle into a nice slow crawl thru the yard, then as we get out on the main, open up the throttle a bit more. I can then sit back and enjoy. No constant babysitting the throttle, I might stop once or twice to turn the gas down as the tank heats up and pressure rises. I can get nearly 30min runs out of my Billy with carefull gas control. With the Slomo I am not using up steam as fast as a model without the device. This extends the run just a bit. I also have engines fitted with onboard battery as some days, I do not wish to run live steam, or I am out of fuel and to tired to run out to the store for more. I think most railways have both battery powered models and live steamers. If you keep on top of your daily chores with a live steamer, the amount of prep time before and after doesn't really take that long at all. Some of the desire for live steam is the whole ambience it creates, the smells and sounds of a living steam railway. No battery train can do that

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by invicta280 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:14 pm

Tag Gorton wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:55 pm Mind the most interesting part of the visit was to see the indoor model Buckingham Great Central working.
I'm quite envious Tag
I still have the copy of Railway Modeller featuring Buckingham Central that I bought in New Zealand as a teenager all those years back. I was knocked out by the quality of the modelling and the sheer elegance of it. Even now, if someone mentions the Great Central Rlwy I get a mental picture of the terminus at Buckingham GC or Grandborough Jnctn.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:34 pm

invicta280 wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:14 pm
Tag Gorton wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:55 pm Mind the most interesting part of the visit was to see the indoor model Buckingham Great Central working.
I'm quite envious Tag
I still have the copy of Railway Modeller featuring Buckingham Central that I bought in New Zealand as a teenager all those years back. I was knocked out by the quality of the modelling and the sheer elegance of it. Even now, if someone mentions the Great Central Rlwy I get a mental picture of the terminus at Buckingham GC or Grandborough Jnctn.
Ditto - plus the chance to see one of the versions of the Trepolpen LR

Rik
ps Maybe I need to develop an Automatic Crispin to help with my running sessions. I suspect that my interest in the operational aspects of running a railway may well have been inspired by the Reverend gent
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:47 pm

artfull dodger wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:35 pm No constant babysitting the throttle, I might stop once or twice to turn the gas down as the tank heats up and pressure rises. I can get nearly 30min runs out of my Billy with carefull gas control.

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I hadn't realised a Slomo would increase running time. An added bonus.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:57 pm

Incidentally, found this photo of the Automatic Crispin -a masterpiece of electro mechanical engineering
img_2655-cropped.jpg
img_2655-cropped.jpg (212.73 KiB) Viewed 4736 times
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by ge_rik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:02 pm

Actually, here's a better image of it in situ
post-18225-0-72347700-1440926071.jpg
post-18225-0-72347700-1440926071.jpg (312.96 KiB) Viewed 4735 times
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by bazzer42 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:55 pm

Ah, the automatic Crispin. I remember that issue but no longer have it. Now the subject has come up it was a railway modeller article (late 70s early 80s?) that got me thinking garden. I hope I still have the copy in the attic. It was written by a guy who had access to unwanted film props and had used them in his buildings. His operation was spread over a real day, early morning train, lunch time train, last train of the evening sort of thing. I don't recall it being overly realistic but always made me think one day I'll have a garden railway.

I haven't contributed much to this debate but keep doing what you do Rik, I like it.

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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by Lonsdaler » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:20 am

ge_rik wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:02 pm Actually, here's a better image of it in situ
post-18225-0-72347700-1440926071.jpg

Rik
Well, if anyone on this forum has the experience to develop a modern equivalent to the auto-Crispin, it is surely you Rik. I expect those little brain cells have been whirring and gogitating all night :lol:
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Re: Why Live Steam?

Post by FWLR » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:45 am

Now you all have gone well over my head.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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