Why Live Steam?

[LNR]

As has already been said it's down to personal preference. I enjoy preparing a loco, shunting to make up a train, after setting signals, running, shunting at a wayside stop, to finally arrive at a destination, shunt again, then rest. My locos are all manual control, and will run extremely slowly. Some times I'll only get to run two trains, one before lunch, and one after, but it's all done at slow speed and without time considerations. I find when you run regularly, you get to know each loco, and your line, when lubricators need filling, and boilers need topping up and gas too. In the time it takes for a chosen loco to raise steam, my battery loco has brought the rolling stock down to Leawarra, and positioned any stock for wayside shunting. I've had days when I don't leave Leawarra yard, just tootle around, shunting and enjoying the steam and oil smells. It's all about steam for me and trying to replicate a REAL scene.
Grant.

[Busted Bricks]

What I've still not been able to pin down is why many 16 millers would not contemplate running a battery powered steam outline loco.

Rik

Could it be that there are still many people who have had a bad experience with the hassle of track power? They may not realize how practical battery electric R/C can be. Your many posts and videos may help to change that. As far as I know PDF models have sold a fair few of their steam outline locos, so perhaps we are about to see more of them being run in the future?

I built a mock-up of a Cracker in 7/8ths scale and actually plan to power it with an electric motor. It's laser cut from plywood and Polybak so cheap as chips to build.

[ge_rik]

I think it is a very interesting debate and shows just how broad this wonderful hobby can be. I don't see it as knocking live steam. Indeed, if your main goal is to run against a time table then battery electric R/C is probably far more practical.

Even when we are discussing live steam locos only there are very different views on what they should look like and how they should be run. Some prefer as close to scale as possible while others are perfectly happy with a Mamod or other non-scale locos.

I every hobby I have ever been involved in there has always been some finger-pointing and looking down on the practices of the various groups within the hobby. It's no better or worse in this hobby. If anything, the garden railway segment seems to be a bit more relaxed then the indoor smaller scales.

For me it's all about look and feel. Even the best scale models will never be 100% accurate miniatures of the real thing, so why pretend? As longs as I have the heat, the smoke, the oil, the sound then I'm happy to run on a track laid on a table (or in a "proper" garden railway). I'd prefer to build my own locomotives but haven't had the opportunity to do so for several years. Hence it's nice that commercial items are available.

That's a useful and interesting contribution and I agree that this is a fascinating debate (but then, I initiated it). There's no way we will ever get a consensus in our hobby but I think it's true that 16 millers are more tolerant than other branches of our hobby. At the last steam up I attended there were some with very expensive live steam locos and highly detailed rolling stock and also some with tiny battery operated diesels made from IP Engineering kits with a couple of very basic wagons in tow. They were all given equal access to the tracks.

Rik

[ge_rik]

As has already been said it's down to personal preference. I enjoy preparing a loco, shunting to make up a train, after setting signals, running, shunting at a wayside stop, to finally arrive at a destination, shunt again, then rest. My locos are all manual control, and will run extremely slowly. Some times I'll only get to run two trains, one before lunch, and one after, but it's all done at slow speed and without time considerations. I find when you run regularly, you get to know each loco, and your line, when lubricators need filling, and boilers need topping up and gas too. In the time it takes for a chosen loco to raise steam, my battery loco has brought the rolling stock down to Leawarra, and positioned any stock for wayside shunting. I've had days when I don't leave Leawarra yard, just tootle around, shunting and enjoying the steam and oil smells. It's all about steam for me and trying to replicate a REAL scene.
Grant.

So, you seem to have combined the satisfaction gained from running live steam locos with operating a railway realistically.

Just out of interest, is your battery loco diesel or live steam outline? You can see where I'm going with this.

Rik

[Big Jim]

What I've still not been able to pin down is why many 16 millers would not contemplate running a battery powered steam outline loco.

Ahhh, now that is something I have been thinking about. I think it may have something to do with a perceived idea that if it is in the garden and it looks like a steam engine then it should be a steam engine. Now I used to think this way until I saw some of the models built by people like your self and Mr. Butler. For me this may stem from the fact that it is easier to get a i/c model to look like the real thing in 16mm scale than it is a steam engine. Many small i/c engines are boxes on wheels and it is a more straightforward thing to build as you don't have to worry about valve gear and other moving parts.
I do wonder if the attraction for many people who build a garden line is the fact that they can have live steam. This was what got me into it, when I saw my first Live steam NG loco years ago that was the attraction, if I wanted electrically powered locos I could stay indoors.
There is also the possibility that the market is geared more towards battery i/c rather than battery powered steam. Until PDF models started bringing out their range there were very few suppliers who produced kits that were steam outline. However, there were lots of companies, large and small who would sell you bits to built an i/c loco.

[ge_rik]

Could it be that there are still many people who have had a bad experience with the hassle of track power? They may not realize how practical battery electric R/C can be. Your many posts and videos may help to change that. As far as I know PDF models have sold a fair few of their steam outline locos, so perhaps we are about to see more of them being run in the future?

I built a mock-up of a Cracker in 7/8ths scale and actually plan to power it with an electric motor. It's laser cut from plywood and Polybak so cheap as chips to build.

Maybe that's behind the apparent prejudice. I think there's also a fair bit of concern and some lack of knowledge about battery technology. Scare stories about lithium batteries exploding have maybe added to that. Interesting to see if the PDF effect does have an impact on what appears at 16mm steam ups

Rik

[tom_tom_go]

Since getting into the garden and running live steam I find any electric mouse pretending to be something it is not does not interest me. Even my own attempt at an electric diesel with lights and sound is soulless.

However, I also don't find a live steamer running at an unrealistic speed chasing it's tail interesting either.

With my discovery of the SSP Slomo and mucking about with magnetic uncoupling I have achieved the benefits of a slow running DCC loco with a real live steamer be it gas or coal fired.

My two pence...

[LNR]

Just out of interest, is your battery loco diesel or live steam outline?

It's petrol mechanical in outline Rik.
Grant.

[laalratty]

Must admit for me the idea of having a steam outline battery loco has just not appealed, and that even the best, mostly finely detailed 16mm steam outline is still missing something. Real steam locos share the characteristics of the prototype, of taking an amount of skill to perform its best. A steam outline battery doesn't have that, it is switch on and go and if you are representing switch on and go in a scale that you can have a real steam loco, then you might as well have your switch on and go as a diesel. The greatest use my battery locos get is for running the first train to make sure the line is clear, for any stock shunting as required and then towing the stock back at the end of a session and putting it away. I may run a few laps of the track with it as well as a "last train of the day". Doing this, it feels to me like I am running the types of motive power available to me quite realistically.

[Hydrostatic Dazza]

Saturday evening, pack kit bag and tucker box, lay overalls out and pack the car.
3.00am Sunday alarm, , errrrrr.
3.30am into car and drive 90 mins.
Arrive at Loco shed, turn pit lights on etc and sign on and read notices.
Do the checks of loco and toss lighting up timber into the fire box.2 x Diesel soaked rag and a match and toss one midway and one to the front of the grate.



Make cup of tea. Listen to the morning bird song.
See the first morning winter light appear. So nice!



Clean loco and check fire and add more timber. (old sleepers)



Do chores, cleaning and oiling up and chat to shed arrivees and more cups of black tea.



Driver is going his oil up as the boiler is starting to gurgle. 50 psi on the gauge, the coal firing is eased into.
Fireman fills the Hydrostatic lubricator.



The Westinghouse Pump is started, slowly and the pant of the pump is the pulse of the loco coming fully alive.
Whistle out time is approaching, change from overalls to crew kit.



Set the shed the points and the whistle out to couple up to the carriages.
and the onwards for the rest of the day

"Fluffing about". No mate, it is the life, the experience, the whole opera, the smell, the dirt, the heat, the sounds and the people. The drive home has a very content player. A live steam engine or loco of any size has this same emotion, only the scale is different.

[ge_rik]

What I've still not been able to pin down is why many 16 millers would not contemplate running a battery powered steam outline loco.

Ahhh, now that is something I have been thinking about. I think it may have something to do with a perceived idea that if it is in the garden and it looks like a steam engine then it should be a steam engine. Now I used to think this way until I saw some of the models built by people like your self and Mr. Butler. For me this may stem from the fact that it is easier to get a i/c model to look like the real thing in 16mm scale than it is a steam engine. Many small i/c engines are boxes on wheels and it is a more straightforward thing to build as you don't have to worry about valve gear and other moving parts.
I do wonder if the attraction for many people who build a garden line is the fact that they can have live steam. This was what got me into it, when I saw my first Live steam NG loco years ago that was the attraction, if I wanted electrically powered locos I could stay indoors.
There is also the possibility that the market is geared more towards battery i/c rather than battery powered steam. Until PDF models started bringing out their range there were very few suppliers who produced kits that were steam outline. However, there were lots of companies, large and small who would sell you bits to built an i/c loco.

Hmmmm .... that's a useful insight. I'd seen live steam locos but, other than Mamod, felt they were well outside my budget. Budget has always been a significant factor and so, when I wanted a new loco, I'd have to make it myself and, like Peter, my skills only extended as far as plastics and wood (with a bit of kitchen table metal working). As Peter says, this medium does not lend itself to gas, meths or coal as a power source.

Rik

[tom_tom_go]

Lovely photos!

[ge_rik]

I can see from Dazza and Tom's responses that there is an emotional component associated with running a live steam loco which can't be replicated in any other way. Presumably this emotion is only inspired by steam power?

Rik
PS As Tom says, wonderful photos.
PPS Does that mean I'd have to get up at 3.00am to get the full experience the next time I run my live steam loco?

[tom_tom_go]

Not just live steam, a class 37 starting up and rumbling along with clag is just as interesting.

No one as yet has managed to bring a RTR live diesel to 16mm scale that does not sound like a lawn mower.

[DLRdan]

This has been an interesting read, particularly as live steam has become something of a novelty in my group of late most preferring their battery powered locomotives in all outlines (steam, diesel and electric). In the past couple of years I have noticed that I have been making use of my diesel and electric outline locos more than my live steamers, I get the same enjoyment watching them snake their way around the garden without the wait of a steam loco to get up to pressure. I'm also a keen gardener and usually have something to keep me company, it's very rare I have a run just for the fun of it these days as I can normally find other things that need doing. A battery loco fits this well with run times around 6 hours rather than 40 or so minutes of a steam loco. There is a PDF models Hunslet currently being built and a vintage model of Blanche in Ffestiniog form, both battery powered.

[Busted Bricks]

I was a very early adopter of electric power in R/C flight and sold off my IC engines straight after having flown my first electric model. Therefore I'm very familiar with the various types of cells, chargers and R/C equipment. I also have some manufacturing capabilities. I wonder if the world is ready for more steam outline electric kits? Maybe they aren't popular because of the lack of commercially available items? Perhaps cost is a factor? I don't know. What I do know is that a loco kit can be put together quite cheaply if it doesn't have to be all steel and brass (and no reason why it needs to be since there is no heat or oil involved). IIRC there were some printed cardboard kits available some years ago.

[Hydrostatic Dazza]

I can see from Dazza and Tom's responses that there is an emotional component associated with running a live steam loco which can't be replicated in any other way. Presumably this emotion is only inspired by steam power?

Rik
PS As Tom says, wonderful photos.
PPS Does that mean I'd have to get up at 3.00am to get the full experience the next time I run my live steam loco?

Many get wet and sticky when they hear an English Electric notch up.
One day the punters will get wet and sticky when they hear a big Electric hum under the cantenary, (you would wonder why but life is like that)
So the emotion can be found in all forms.
It is about having fun with some satisfaction and intrinsic rewards.

A wise woman once said to me, the most important part of having fun is having the wisdom to pause, contemplate, appreciate and recognise, "that this is fun and a good moment of life"

PPS. For a partial experience, at least get dressed up in the kit and pull the fob watch out of the pocket to check the whistle out time from the steaming bays

[DG]

Rik,

You asked about the attraction of live steam.

An idea to help the analysis. Emulating what you like about the hobby but with steam instead of electric

As well as prompting this discussion you could do a live experiment. e.g. You could run your schedule with live steamers. This would present new logistical problems (a harder planned schedule to conceive, loco preparation time, siting and delivery of resources, coordination) and you would probably need a number of operators. It may provide a new insight.

I started out with a LGB starter set which we still run and I also run live steam. Love them both for different reasons.

Dave

[dewintondave]

I have explored live steam, but there seems to be a lot of initial faffing around, followed by twenty minutes of intense activity where it's difficult if not impossible to get the loco to run reliably at a realistic speed, and then the faffing is repeated. Live steam locos seem to be extremely demanding but to my mind give little in return.
Rik

There's also a lot of nervous excitement beforehand too, which must afterwards result in the release of endorphins, which makes it addictive. You haven't been experiencing this with battery powered of course

I love the faffing around so much that I can just run round my loop with a big grin on my face.

I love all the controls, and add more. Even to my simple little De Wintons, I added blowers, pressure gauges, blowdown valves, adjustable lubricator, re-routed the exhaust. I just wouldn't be satisfied with a commercial gas fired steamer

[ge_rik]

Overnight, I've been trying to decide if I get the same sort of emotional hit which Tom, Tag, Dazza and deWinton Dave have described when I run my 'soulless electric mice'.

I suppose my emotional involvement comes from the satisfaction I get in watching a train which is entirely of my own making meandering its way at a realistic speed through a landscape which I have created. With soundcards, there's also the aural component which adds to that experience.

Does the fact my stock are not perfect scale models or my locos electrically powered rather than steam powered diminish the buzz I get from all this? No, I don't think so.

Rik