Boiler Certificates part 2

[steveh99]

As my previous post seems to have drawn little comment, lets try this one instead:

I do not think the 16mm Association and G scale Society have done enough to stop MELG and the Federation of Model Engineers imposing their necessary rules on us. 5in, 7in, 10in etc locos are usually built by model engineers with no specific qualifications, including constructing their own boilers of considerably more capacity than ours and it is right they should be tested and regulated as currently laid out.

I propose to start a campaign to stop/reverse MELG and others imposing their rules and regulations on our hobby for all 16mm and G scale locos that have a boiler capacity of less than the 3 bar/litres before they destroy our hobby and make garden rail exhibitions a thing of the past. Our insurers, Walker Midgley, are happy to offer public liability insurance without the need for a boiler certificate or annual steam tests.

We are not model engineers, we do not make our own boilers, The 3 bar/litre limit should protect us with the following proviso: The model must contain a boiler made by a list of approved manufactures - Roundhouse, Accucraft etc.

These boilers are inherently safe due to the nature of their construction, their limited volume and pressure and the testing carried out by the manufacturer that is valid for the life of the boiler. There is more bar/litre in a bicycle tyre made of rubber than in our boilers.

I agree we should check the locos over once a year, although I effectively do this every time I run it, but a check that the safety valve lifts somewhere around the mid-point of the pressure gauge is a good thing. These gauges are not particularly accurate so +/- 10 psi is fine.

Let’s not even get involved with gas tank testing. We fill these from a very thin walled aerosol can that contains 10 times the bar/litre of the solidly made loco tank. Both a fitted with a flimsy valve system originally designed for cigarette lighters and that seals using a rubber O ring.

Does anyone agree?

[Peter Butler]

Yes,I agree.... although I only have one live steamer, RH Billy, and rarely use it preferring to run my RC battery locos, it seems this will inevitably result in the demise of public gatherings and a loss to the hobby in general.
Your explanation and research into manufacturing of high quality boilers by reputable companies and the position regarding insurance issues means this is a totally unnecessary step and one which should be contested. I am sure that owners are responsible people who take care of their valuable locos and would never allow them to cause harm to themselves or others.
Incidentally, I have a pre-charged air rifle which holds 300 Bar of pressure and needs no annual testing....

[tom_tom_go]

The problem is to do with running in public events correct?

So this will come down to each individual event/insurance company and what they require and so nothing to do with any organisation imposing any rule?

Most of us don't run publicly so it isn't a problem...

[TonyW]

So this will come down to each individual event/insurance company and what they require and so nothing to do with any organisation imposing any rule?

Is the correct answer. Their site, their railway, their rules. Obey them, or go somewhere else.

I don't feel imposed upon. The 16mm Assoc. can say all it likes, but until their insurance notes (http://www.16mm.org.uk/membership/membe ... insurance/) contain words like "mandatory", "required" and "must" they do not actually impose anything. Even then, it is the choice of the individual to remain a member, or leave.

An analogy would be the world of old cars. A collectors club could "impose" whatever they wanted on how their members maintained their vehicles, but it is only the Government-appointed MOT Inspector who can say whether a vehicle is road-legal or not. Fortunately we do not have such inspections in our world, mainly because it would be impossible to police.

2017 marks my 30th year doing this stuff. Although I have boilers that have been tested by an experienced boilermaker for my own peace-of-mind, I have yet to subject any of them to an Association test.

[Boustrophedon]

I was always confused by the school's art department's espresso machine did not have or seem to need a boiler certificate despite being way over the 3Bar litre limit.

Or the bouncy castle we hired for a birthday party.

[steveh99]

The problem is to do with running in public events correct?

So this will come down to each individual event/insurance company and what they require and so nothing to do with any organisation imposing any rule?

Most of us don't run publicly so it isn't a problem...

Yes, it is public events and Model Railway Exhibitions. and I agree it is down to individual event managers to set the rules, but.,,....

Event managers look to professional bodies for guidance as to what they should check for and the 2012 MELG/BTC2012 code has now included boilers under 3 bar/litres which it previously excluded in the 2008 version. The more that these organisations and the 16mm Assoc etc., introduce or talk about these requirements, the more event managers are beginning to ask for them. If there were clear guidelines available that excluded our locos from these requirements, the less of an issue it would be.

I already turn down invites to exhibitions and public events that ask for a boiler certificate and this is becoming more frequent.

[tom_tom_go]

Thanks for the link Tony, never have bothered to look into it but I found this part interesting:

A steam test should be carried out and documented by the owner every 12 months in order to ensure the correct operation of the safety valve at the correct release pressure. This should be recorded on a copy of the Boiler Test Record sheet. The boiler and the pipework installation should also be checked at the same time.

Where any injury or damage is caused by a member’s boiler, resulting in a claim under the Associations insurance policy the member needs to show that the boiler was in compliance with the guidelines of the code.

So if you are a 16mm NGM member and you don't do this are you not insured?

[steveh99]

someone needs to check the terms and conditions relating to public liability cover. I don't think it is sufficient to say just because you are a 16mm member you automatically have unconditional cover. Knowing insurance companies, this seems extremely unlikely. I note the following from the 16mm website:

In addition to the above cover it should be noted that for exhibitions cover is provided where the expected attendance is less than 1,000 persons per day at an indoor venue and 1,500 for an outdoor venue

How many persons went to Peterborough?

[TonyW]

So if you are a 16mm NGM member and you don't do this are you not insured?

A good and valid point Tom, but that pesky word "should" appears three times in the first paragraph. Some might think if it were that important those "shoulds" would be "musts". On the other hand, and playing Devil's Advocate maybe, perhaps the "shoulds" are there deliberately...?

[steveh99]

Thanks for the link Tony, never have bothered to look into it but I found this part interesting:

A steam test should be carried out and documented by the owner every 12 months in order to ensure the correct operation of the safety valve at the correct release pressure. This should be recorded on a copy of the Boiler Test Record sheet. The boiler and the pipework installation should also be checked at the same time.

Where any injury or damage is caused by a member’s boiler, resulting in a claim under the Associations insurance policy the member needs to show that the boiler was in compliance with the guidelines of the code.

So if you are a 16mm NGM member and you don't do this are you not insured?

Thats not what the policy states. It says if under 3 bar/litre then the policy shall be in force whether or not a valid thorough examination certificate has been issued. So the compliance with the guidelines is irrelevant

[laurence703]

someone needs to check the terms and conditions relating to public liability cover. I don't think it is sufficient to say just because you are a 16mm member you automatically have unconditional cover. Knowing insurance companies, this seems extremely unlikely. I note the following from the 16mm website:

In addition to the above cover it should be noted that for exhibitions cover is provided where the expected attendance is less than 1,000 persons per day at an indoor venue and 1,500 for an outdoor venue

How many persons went to Peterborough?

Peterborough Show has it's own insurance for that

[laurence703]

Also Just to clear up a few things, I asked for a bit of clarification on this from one of the chaps who's been dealing with this from the association's side of things:

This post starts by asserting that the Association 16mm of 16mm Narrow Gauge Modellers has not done enough to stop MELG and the Federation of Model Engineers imposing their necessary rules on us.

The Association has been a participant in MELG for over a year and was invited to become a voting member in March 2017. The Association along with G1MRA was invited by MELG in spring 2016 to draft small boiler and gas tank codes which are being submitted to MELG for discussion in the next meeting on 15th June. The new codes have been formed by these two Associations, representing circa 6,000 modellers, for and in the best interests of their members. The fact that the Association has been involved in this has been widely reported and Annual General Meetings and in print. It is hoped that these codes will be adopted and come into effect later this year.

These codes recognise that the vast majority of members are modellers rather than engineers and that the vast majority of the locomotives that they run have been commercially built and tested to high standards at manufacture. A centre point of these codes remains the annual safety tests, which the Associations have been recommending for many years that members perform each year.

These codes will in the view of the Associations represent best practice for safeguarding members, whether they are operating alone, privately with friends or other members or at events to which the public has access. There is no plan to change the terms of the public liability insurance, which provides cover regardless of whether the guidelines laid down in the code have been followed. Event organisers, including model engineering clubs, will always have the prerogative to impose their own requirements for their events. However, it is expected that by having codes specific to small boilers and gas tanks which have been endorsed by MELG, members who can demonstrate adherence to these codes will not encounter difficulty getting their locomotives accepted for running at these events.

If Association members have specific questions about these codes they should approach the technical representative within the Association.

Long Story Short, trying to make it much simpler and easier for everyone.

[steveh99]

Thank you Laurence for the clarification. I apologise if I have misrepresented the 16mm Association in anyway.
Personally I don’t think it is very clear from the myriad of information available on line, exactly what is mandatory and what is a nice to have and there are far too many 'shoulds' and 'recommends' I would like to see a statement to the following effect:
For commercial locos/boilers from specific manufacturers such as Roundhouse and Accucraft etc, and below 3 bar litres, then for the owners and operators of such locos:
1. There is no legal or other mandatory requirement for a boiler certificate.
2. There is no legal or other mandatory requirement for an annual steam test / written examination
3. There is no legal or other mandatory requirement for a test of the butane gas tank.
It is also not a requirement for public liability insurance, either association, group or private individual.
Let’s keep it that way.
It should be clear that anything else is purely optional or at the whim of a club or exhibition manager. Using or involving MELG and other federation codes just makes it look all the more of a requirement that doesn’t distinguish our hobby sufficiently from model engineering groups using much larger engines and I think there is a huge difference between us.
I haven’t a problem with suggesting a self certified annual steam test for our own personal benefit although I think +/- 10% is a very tight margin given the type and size of safety valve and pressure gauge in use by us and that +/- 10 psi would be a more realistic figure.

[laurence703]

At present there is not much point in addressing issues with the current code etc as it's going to be replaced soon anyway for the better.

Although I don't personally ask to see people's boiler certs / steam test records for P'bro show it literally only takes one incident for the whole lot to be shut down. I don't want that and neither does anyone else. If there should be such an incident then I would have to strictly enforce that any and all steam locomotives have the relevant paperwork before it runs at my show, I hope I never have to do this. That's just the way the world is now.

[steveh99]

At present there is not much point in addressing issues with the current code etc as it's going to be replaced soon anyway for the better.

Although I don't personally ask to see people's boiler certs / steam test records for P'bro show it literally only takes one incident for the whole lot to be shut down. I don't want that and neither does anyone else. If there should be such an incident then I would have to strictly enforce that any and all steam locomotives have the relevant paperwork before it runs at my show, I hope I never have to do this. That's just the way the world is now.

I understand that, so as a point of interest I regularly steam test all my locos, usually a few days before I pack them up to go to an exhibition, so typically I am testing them every 2 or 3 months or so. I also keep a loco maintenance log for any work I do on a loco and record this and all steam test results on a log sheet for each loco.

[steveh99]

I think we can close this discussion now as I feel I have achieved what I wanted, ie. much better clarity on what is, or is not, a mandatory requirement.
Do I need to remove my boilers or gas tanks from my locos and take them to a boiler tester for an hydraulic test and get a certificate - No
Do I need to perform a written steam test - No, but
1. Some exhibitions or clubs may ask to see one at their discretion
2. It is not onerous to do and generally seems like a good idea. However, a simple does the safety valve lift at around mid point of gauge and then does the pressure not rise by more than 10psi if the gas burner is left fully turned up would seem more appropriate in this scale.
I would be interested to know if any manufacturer or organisation has tested a boiler to destruction and what were the results? 400psi? no explosion? just a leak?
I suspect we would run out of gas first.
Many thanks to all those who responded and/or emailed me.
Happy steaming

[GTB]

I would be interested to know if any manufacturer or organisation has tested a boiler to destruction and what were the results?

Here in Aust., some centre flue gas fired boilers were tested to destruction as part of the development work for the AMBSC Code Part 3 - Sub-miniature Boilers.

The report is available on the RiTG site to download here. http://sgcox.site.net.au/ritg/boiler-tests.pdf

Note, the hydraulic pressure testing was done cold, so the failure pressure is somewhat higher than it would be with a hot boiler. Copper loses about 10% of it's tensile strength at the 140degC of steam at 40psi. By the time a boiler is getting hot enough to melt the silver brazing alloy, the copper will be down to less than 40% of of it's strength at room temperature.

The current issue of AME, Issue 192, May-June 2017, has a couple of articles on the temperatures a sub-miniature coal fired boiler can reach if it is allowed to run dry. One has measurements taken on a real boiler, the other is a thermodynamic simulation. Although the articles are specifically about coal fired boilers, some of the information is also relevant to gas fired boilers.

Magazine website is here - http://www.ameng.com.au/australian_mode ... ntents.htm

Regards,
Graeme

[TonyW]

The report is available on the RiTG site to download here. http://sgcox.site.net.au/ritg/boiler-tests.pdf

That link unfortunately says "The site you tried to access does not exist". Do you know if it has been posted elsewhere? I think I remember this from a few years ago and, if correct, I recall that the lowest failure pressure was around 1000psi.

The current issue of AME, Issue 192, May-June 2017, has a couple of articles on the temperatures a sub-miniature coal fired boiler can reach if it is allowed to run dry. One has measurements taken on a real boiler, the other is a thermodynamic simulation. Although the articles are specifically about coal fired boilers, some of the information is also relevant to gas fired boilers.

Magazine website is here - http://www.ameng.com.au/australian_mode ... ntents.htm

Graeme, could you give us a precis of what was written, please? A feature of coal-fired boilers is that once they run dry there is no steam to provide a forced draught from exhaust or blower and the fire will then die fairly quickly, and certainly before paintwork or radio control damage could occur. And no water means no steam so no explosion.

[LNR]

Hi Tony, PM sent.
Grant.

[TonyW]

The Australian test document is now available on my web site: http://www.rhoshelyg.me.uk/RITG%20Boiler%20Tests.pdf

Note that none of the boilers tested had a pressure gauge, which would surely be the first component to fail if pressurised beyond its design capabilities.