Annual loco sales?

funandtrains · Post by **funandtrains** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:15 am

Busted Bricks:117371 wrote:As mentioned about, I am talking about the Cracker locomotive so the engine is very visible.

In that case I think your market is limited.

sstjc · Post by **sstjc** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:01 pm

I don't agree on the oscillating cylinders. Those that don't want to see them can fit covers. The cracker is a good idea and i'd encourage you to give it a go. There is very little on the market in the sub-£300 area.

Good luck with it !

Barry

Busted Bricks · Post by **Busted Bricks** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:15 pm

I can only think of the MSS loco (£185) and the Regner Max (£260). both of those are meths fired, mine would be internal gas fired (and have a lubricator and silver soldered boiler). A Cracker is a bit of a novelty item for sure and it may hold less appeal to others than I expected it would.

funandtrains · Post by **funandtrains** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:34 pm

This design has had at least 2 builders before and was rather a novelty loco with limited numbers sold, no doubt due to the price then being high for what you got. The small size though will appeal to those running quarry lines if you can get the price down.
The reduced cost of computerised manufacture and design does seem to have made closer to scale models more affordable to make and there does seem to be a move in popularity away from more freelance designs.

Busted Bricks · Post by **Busted Bricks** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:56 pm

Really? I have never seen a commercial offering for the Cracker loco. Who made/sold them?

funandtrains · Post by **funandtrains** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:20 pm

Busted Bricks:117388 wrote:Really? I have never seen a commercial offering for the Cracker loco. Who made/sold them?

They are / were made in the US and called the Cricket, the current version production costs over twice your price hence why you don't see many about:

http://www.cricketlivesteammotor.com/

Busted Bricks · Post by **Busted Bricks** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:29 pm

Ah, the Cricket. I'm familiar with that. It is quite a bit larger than a Cracker. I agree the price seems on the high side. At the current exchange rate it is £666. Then you have to add shipping, duty, VAT and fees.

cncmodeller · Post by **cncmodeller** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:46 pm

If you're going for simple, why not do an Aveling & Porter single cylinder loco? At least it would be real, they did do some narrow gauge ones.
Its the one thing that always put me off the Regner locos.

funandtrains · Post by **funandtrains** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:57 pm

cncmodeller:117393 wrote:If you're going for simple, why not do an Aveling & Porter single cylinder loco? At least it would be real, they did do some narrow gauge ones.
Its the one thing that always put me off the Regner locos.

or a 2'gauge Sentinel

Post by **-steves-** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:13 pm

Just my 2p worth, but if I were going to produce a live steam loco, it would not be an oscillator, whereas something with valve gear would appeal to me personally. Also I don't like anything without reversing gear either so again if it were me, I would go down the reversing gear route. We all have our own preferences of course, but if you look what does well (Accucraft and Roundhouse) then thats what you are up against but doing it cheaper, if at all possible, if not possible, then I would not waste my time and money trying. As I say, all my personal opinion and not relevant as it appears you have already had some outlay in this.

I do however wish you all the best in your venture, honestly, the best of luck to you

Busted Bricks · Post by **Busted Bricks** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:32 pm

So far I haven't invested more money than I make in a couple of days so it's not like the house and car is on the line.

Big Jim · Post by **Big Jim** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:49 pm

Good luck with your project if you decide to go ahead with it. I personally think that the success of an engine is often linked to its price and adaptability.

I know we are going back many years but the original Mamod engine was a huge seller and I think this was down to the price.

Why are there so many Millies and Caradoc/Ragleth etc about? Price one would assume.

Keith S · Post by **Keith S** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:59 am

cncmodeller:117393 wrote:If you're going for simple, why not do an Aveling & Porter single cylinder loco? At least it would be real, they did do some narrow gauge ones.
Its the one thing that always put me off the Regner locos.

The joke's on you. There WAS a "real" Cricket. Close enough, anyway:

rebelego · Post by **rebelego** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:03 am

Busted Bricks:117324 wrote:Does anyone have any knowledge of app. how many steam locos are sold in the UK per year?

Interesting question. I wonder how Roundhouse are able to manage with quite a number of employees. The yearly production can't be that large. Salaries, which usually is the highest cost, are probably much lower than in Norway, though.

But, for possible Cracker sales I guess you should look to Mamod and not Roundhouse and Accucraft.

ferrysteam · Post by **ferrysteam** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:10 am

I hope you don't mind me poking my nose in but the biggest problem any potential loco manufacturer has is 'China'. Few companies in this country can compete with them due to the low wages they pay their workers. It's worth thinking about before you start full production but good luck with your project anyway.

Busted Bricks · Post by **Busted Bricks** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:28 am

There isn't much of a threat from China at present as they don't produce and sell any locos directly. I know that Accucraft locos are built in China but price wise they don't seem to be far off Roundhouse prices.

With regards to parts, I have found a supplier in Denmark that can make CNC turned parts at prices very close to China prices since I save on shipping and duty. Also laser cutting is very affordable in Europe these days. Material prices are pretty much the same the world over.

I don't have any cost for rent, there are no rates to pay and I don't employ any staff so my own overhead is quite low. As long as I can meet the local minimum wage for my own time I'm happy (app. £13 per hour)

Michael

KNO3 · Post by **KNO3** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:51 pm

It's hard to evaluate the model steam loco market, but if it's of any use, here are the kinds of locos that would appeal to me and perhaps others:

Route 1
A small loco that can run on widely available track like H0 with 16,5 mm. H0 has the widest market share, world-wide.
I doubt there is much competition in that area from other live steam manufacturers. The advantage would be a large existing pool of potential buyers who run H0 trains.
Also, many people refrain from getting locos that run on 32 or 45 mm because they feel they are too big for their small apartments etc., but they might be interested in a live steam loco that can run on their indoor H0 circuit.

Route 2
A nice loco regaugeable between 32 and 45 mm, with full control (speed and reversing). That usually implies 2 cylinders. I would think this loco should be offered ready to run and in kit form. If you only offer a kit, it would discourage many who aren't sure of their abilities to build it.
I would make it internally fired, with either gas or alcohol, whatever would be cheaper to manufacture.
As you know, for these gauges there is an established competition.
I wouldn't go for a single cylinder locomotive, since it's not so easy to control, which might put off some.

Considerations regarding both routes mentioned above:
Most important, make the loco detailed enough to look like a plausible real life loco, but it doesn't have to be a copy of any prototype. Which means it should have nicely designed parts: avoid the look of large lumps of crudely machined metal (as seen on some toy steam cylinders).
Try to make it upgradeable with parts form other suppliers. Which means choosing the most widely used threads for boiler bushes, for instance.
Look into having parts manufactured overseas if that works out cheaper.
And don't forget advertising, even if you choose free means such as youtube videos, forum postings, facebook page, etc.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:26 pm

Hi, i think for the UK 2 foot gauge prototype market (which i expect is the largest in 16mm) a craker loco could be quite appealing for small industrial lines although i do doubt whether you will be able to sell 50 of them a year. If i were starting out making a live steam loco then i would personally look at producing a small slip eccentric loco perhaps like a Wild rose of Dave Watkins drawings. if you aimed to make 25 RTR then 25 in kit form (which perhaps dont require to much engineering skills but are also more difficult than roundhouses) then i reckon you would be on to a winner. Both forms either a RTR small slip eccentric loco or for a reasonable price of (around £400-£500) or a kit of one for about (£340-£400) are two areas of the 16mm market not currently catered very well for. This is especially true when you look at roundhouse and there latest offerings both of which are high end and not accessible to many modelers and especially beginners into the hobby. As for Accucraft despite there lower prices many people even begginers into the hobby arent comfortable with getting a loco from China.
anyway whatever way you go Good luck!

cheers
Joe

Post by **-steves-** » Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:07 pm

Hi well I think the above post is potentially flawed in a few palces, in my opinion of course, as we are all entitled to those as per above.

I think 45mm is more popular as many people come from Gauge 1 so already have the track so dont change it. Others model 2'6 and 3' which is a closer representation then 32mm.

Slip eccentric might be cheaper, but it is just that, cheaper and not much fun for anyone that wants or needs RC on their line due to steeper inclines as you have to push it for reverse, kinda defeats the object of RC.

As for Accucraft, myself and many others who I know and speak to on here don't mind buying Accucraft as a first loco, in fact I did just that. I think they are excellent feats of engineering and highly recommend them along with Roundhouse.

So as you can see, there are always 2 sides to every coin!

Busted Bricks · Post by **Busted Bricks** » Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:29 pm

There is a whole world outside of UK and in most other countries 45mm is the track of choice.

A geared oscillator is quite docile and will run without R/C on less than perfect tracks.

Further down the line (no pun intended) I could be interested in manufacturing a loco like Wild Rose but that would require the permission of the designer. In case of the Cracker I have that permission. However I am moving away from the original design by enlarging it.

I'm currently working on drawing generic parts such as unions, valves etc. with the aim to have them made on CNC machines.

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Annual loco sales?

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